[#1Genius]

(Original post by L i b)
In terms of its sovereignty, yes.

So there's no point discussing the viability of a mechanism through which regions with legitimate claim to independence (e.g. the democratic process and crimes against humanity) may do so?

Great.

[L i b]

(Original post by #1Genius)
So there's no point discussing the viability of a mechanism through which regions with legitimate claim to independence (e.g. the democratic process and crimes against humanity) may do so?

Great.

I don't think that those are legitimate claims to independence, as I've clearly said before, and not only do I believe that such things do not remotely help any sort of crimes against humanity, but actively encourage them.

[ConservativeNucleophile]

I would be in for the following reasons:

(Original post by Overground)
- The celebration of the astonishing diversity of cultures, nationalities, ethnicities and languages within this relatively small landmass.

(Original post by Overground)
- The idea that Britain is stronger standing side by side with her neighbours than subsisting as a remote, isolated island.

(Original post by Overground)
No, I explicitly stated in the original post that to be Pro-European you don't necessarily have to be in favour of particular European institutions such as the EU.

And out for the following reasons:

(Original post by Overground)
- British integration with Europe.

(Original post by Overground)
- The belief that the UK must take an active role within the European Union if it is going to remain a member.

In other words, I would join the Society for pro-European reasons, not pro-EU ones.

Decisions, decisions...

[Master Polhem]

LoL what an intelligence bereaved little society you are.

[Danules]

European integration is good. Nationalist pride creates wars and anything that unites a continent that until recently was plagued by war has to be a good thing.

[Democracy]

(Original post by Master Polhem)
LoL what an intelligence bereaved little society you are.

Oh hi, haven't seen much of you lately.

[Gremlins]

(Original post by Danules)
European integration is good. Nationalist pride creates wars and anything that unites a continent that until recently was plagued by war has to be a good thing.

I agree that nationalism is a negative thing. But European integration is making all 27 countries more distrustful of one another, and setting public opinion against international cooperation.

[gamer91]

(Original post by Gremlins)
I agree that nationalism is a negative thing. But European integration is making all 27 countries more distrustful of one another, and setting public opinion against international cooperation.

don't assume that every EU country has as much anti-Europe feeling as we do.

[Paxdax]

(Original post by Democracy)
This thread gets Democracy's Seal of Approval™

http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/coun...drag-drop.html

What score can everyone get?

98% . Misplaced Belarus in the beginning. It gets alot easier after a while, when you can just put them along their neighbours.

[L i b]

(Original post by gamer91)
don't assume that every EU country has as much anti-Europe feeling as we do.

Indeed, we are of course probably the most Eurosceptic countries in Europe; and even then, there's little outright hostility to the EU and our fellow European member-states.

[Gremlins]

(Original post by gamer91)
don't assume that every EU country has as much anti-Europe feeling as we do.

France voted out the Constitution. Holland voted out the Constitution. Ireland voted out the Lisbon Treaty. In Austria far-right anti-EU parties got 30% of the vote. All the Nordics are, as far as I'm aware, at least as anti-EU as we are here. The former Eastern Bloc, having just escaped political domination from Moscow, are not to keen on giving their newly won self-determination over to Brussels.

[gamer91]

(Original post by Gremlins)
France voted out the Constitution. Holland voted out the Constitution. Ireland voted out the Lisbon Treaty. In Austria far-right anti-EU parties got 30% of the vote. All the Nordics are, as far as I'm aware, at least as anti-EU as we are here. The former Eastern Bloc, having just escaped political domination from Moscow, are not to keen on giving their newly won self-determination over to Brussels.

the constitution/Lisbon treaty are not the EU, the Irish voted no because they felt that it may interfere with religious obligations (abortion), the French thought that the constitution was pushing to far towards a single legal system between the EU and with prominent far right personality's such as Le Pen, the 'non' campaign was very strong and full of sensationalist right propaganda, scaring off much of the public (the same country which vetoed the UK's EC entry because we did not share the same vision as the rest of europe?).

[Rob 106]

The UK's intergration to the EU i would suggest is a bad thing.The EU is corrupt, illegitimate and undemocratic. Values of Britain are in many ways incompatible with the EU and I see the EU as a threat to free and democratic countries.
I am keen to hear the reasons that the "Pro-Europe Society" put foward to justify our membership of the EU.

[L i b]

(Original post by Rob 106)
The UK's intergration to the EU i would suggest is a bad thing.The EU is corrupt

I disagree with that assessment; well, insofar as all governments are corrupt to a certain level the EU is only as corrupt as any national government.

illegitimate

Really depends how you define legitimacy. Yes, if you're a backward nationalist, certainly; but I find that thinking rather abhorrent myself.

and undemocratic.

It is a mix of democracy and the representation of the member states which constitute it. That's largely the only way it will work. Yet if we were to make it more democratic, removing the privileges of the national governments within it, then your ilk would be the first to complain.

[Gremlins]

(Original post by L i b)
It is a mix of democracy and the representation of the member states which constitute it. That's largely the only way it will work. Yet if we were to make it more democratic, removing the privileges of the national governments within it, then your ilk would be the first to complain.

Well personally I think that it's really the current situation that's intolerable. We should either have a fully federal, US-style EU, or a supranational one.

[tucker672]

(Original post by Gremlins)
Well personally I think that it's really the current situation that's intolerable. We should either have a fully federal, US-style EU, or a supranational one.

You would like that?

[Gremlins]

(Original post by tucker672)


You would like that?

Well, in terms of accountability and democracy at the top, it would certainly be better than the current set up. But I seriously doubt its political viability.

[tucker672]

(Original post by Gremlins)
Well, in terms of accountability and democracy at the top, it would certainly be better than the current set up. But I seriously doubt its political viability.

What about just a simple common market with "economic unity"; rather than a socialist federal state ?

[gamer91]

(Original post by tucker672)
What about just a simple common market with "economic unity"; rather than a socialist federal state ?

is your sig intentionally from Curtis' the trap or just for the thatcher speech (yes, judging by your previous comment).

[tucker672]

(Original post by gamer91)
is your sig intentionally from Curtis' the trap or just for the thatcher speech (yes, judging by your previous comment).

lol I knew it was from The Trap; but I was just using that particular segment for the speech