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Reply 40
darkraver
Nothing can be faster than the speed of light, but there is one exception to this rule.

Space.

Space at distance x expands faster then the speed of light, and therefore the light from that distance will never reach us.

Where x = a distance so for away that we cannot see it (the light has never reached us since the creation of the universe, and never will since the space expands so fast that the speed of light cannot catch up)

Saw this on a documentary recently. The Universe - Light Speed, quite interesting. PM me if you want link to video.


On average, light travles at c, but now and again some will travel faster than c, some slower (vacuum).
Reply 41
darkraver
Nothing can be faster than the speed of light, but there is one exception to this rule.

Space.

Space at distance x expands faster then the speed of light, and therefore the light from that distance will never reach us.

Where x = a distance so for away that we cannot see it (the light has never reached us since the creation of the universe, and never will since the space expands so fast that the speed of light cannot catch up)

Saw this on a documentary recently. The Universe - Light Speed, quite interesting. PM me if you want link to video.

You confuse the difference between velocity and acceleration.
The event horizon of accelerating objects...
1721
lets be realistic to a minute, how would a sun dissapear that spontaneously?

We're talking theoretically here. Of course its not actually gonna happen, but we can work out what would happen if it did. Einstein did it, and it was proved later on.
Reply 43
Vivisteiner
We're talking theoretically here. Of course its not actually gonna happen, but we can work out what would happen if it did. Einstein did it, and it was proved later on.


The only time the word proved is prudent is when talking mathematics.
^In your opinion. But in reality, nothing can be proved or disproved. Even in mathematics, seeing as we assume the laws of logic to be correct.

So, in this case, by 'proved' I mean 'supported by strong evidence', if you're gonna be picky.
Reply 45
Vivisteiner
^In your opinion. But in reality, nothing can be proved or disproved. Even in mathematics, seeing as we assume the laws of logic to be correct.

So, in this case, by 'proved' I mean 'supported by strong evidence', if you're gonna be picky.


Upon a set of axioms, it is absolute truth that if you follows the rules governed by those axioms, any result established is truth within those axioms, which is the essence of proof.

You can hardly axiomitise science / physical science.
Sorry, you lost me on word five. :wink:


Nah, only kidding. I see what you mean, but I don't understand fully why it can't be applied to science. Surely you have axioms about science such as 'What I observe is an accurate representation of what is actually happening' then you can prove a theory within those axioms? (e.g. I observe this effect occuring. This could only occur if x happened. Therefore x must be true.) Or maybe I misunderstand your point.
Reply 47
Vivisteiner
Sorry, you lost me on word five. :wink:


Nah, only kidding. I see what you mean, but I don't understand fully why it can't be applied to science. Surely you have axioms about science such as 'What I observe is an accurate representation of what is actually happening' then you can prove a theory within those axioms? (e.g. I observe this effect occuring. This could only occur if x happened. Therefore x must be true.) Or maybe I misunderstand your point.

Please explain to me how the human body works.
Remember, you can not open up the body without creating a blackhole.

You just spent several billion to create an X-Ray machine that can view a fuzzy picture after several years of taking different pictures of random samples of people.

A person lives for less than a thousandth of a second.

Now that is the problem for trying to work out what a particle is....


Trying to work out how something works by observing effects is nothing like trying to prove a mathmatical theorem.
One we build upwards with the most basic of constructs.
The other is based on trying to work out smaller more basic things with much more complex things.
Reply 48
Mehh
Please explain to me how the human body works.
Remember, you can not open up the body without creating a blackhole.

You just spent several billion to create an X-Ray machine that can view a fuzzy picture after several years of taking different pictures of random samples of people.

A person lives for less than a thousandth of a second.

Now that is the problem for trying to work out what a particle is....


I get you're trying to make some sort of rhetorical point, but i'm ****** if I know what the hell you're on about...
Reply 49
Scipio90
I get you're trying to make some sort of rhetorical point, but i'm ****** if I know what the hell you're on about...

We can not see the inner workings of Physics.
That is a fact.

Where as in Mathematics you can.

If string theorists are right then the fundimental unit in Physics is a string which is by definition unobservable.
Therefore you can not prove anything because you can't break processes down to the most basic level.
You cannot say this follow that, because maybe, just maybe sometimes it doesn't. Like for example we 'know' that frogs come from tadpoles.
But to prove it you have to either get all frogs in the history of the universe, or prove that there can be no frog without the tadpole.
And then someones comes and builds a frog from scratch...
DeanK2
Upon a set of axioms, it is absolute truth that if you follows the rules governed by those axioms, any result established is truth within those axioms, which is the essence of proof.

You can hardly axiomitise science / physical science.



So what are the postulates of relativity? They are axioms, i.e. something that is taken as true and everything else flows from them.

Just like QM, a set of axioms that tell you how wavefunctions relate to physical observables, then you go and find the said wavefunctions and make predictions.
Reply 51
0 div curl F
So what are the postulates of relativity? They are axioms, i.e. something that is taken as true and everything else flows from them.

Just like QM, a set of axioms that tell you how wavefunctions relate to physical observables, then you go and find the said wavefunctions and make predictions.


People call these axioms, but I wouldn't go as far to say the axioms of QM and relativity are just that.

Even with relativity, for example, and the axiom that light travels at speed c in a vacuum - we now know that photons only travel c on average. And QM description - these postulates define the mathematical procedures and validility of them to the physical word rather than laying down an actual axiom of the phsyical world.

ZFC set theory is rather different - it is 'acceptable' that these axioms can be altered at will, and are not subjective as to how we observe the physical world - somtheing that cerainyl cannot be boldly attributed to any science.
Observations are not subjective, they are objective. The only subjectivity introduced is through how they are interpreted and you make a fair point about that (although I don't fully understand what you're getting at). Still, I think the difference is subtle at best.

Trying to work out how something works by observing effects is nothing like trying to prove a mathmatical theorem.
One we build upwards with the most basic of constructs.
The other is based on trying to work out smaller more basic things with much more complex things

The approach may be different, but I believe that both are valid 'proofs'. Of course, scientific proof wouldn't count as mathematical proof in most cases...

To some extent this whole argument is void though until we define what proof is.
Reply 53
Vivisteiner
Observations are not subjective, they are objective. The only subjectivity introduced is through how they are interpreted and you make a fair point about that (although I don't fully understand what you're getting at). Still, I think the difference is subtle at best.

The approach may be different, but I believe that both are valid 'proofs'. Of course, scientific proof wouldn't count as mathematical proof in most cases...

To some extent this whole argument is void though until we define what proof is.

Observations are not subjective?

I know two theories of Physics which are based on Physics being subjective.
Observations are based on your frame of reference in Relativity.
Quantum Mechanics says that observations define your reality.
^Hmmm, but wouldn't they still be objective, so long as you introduced precise enough clauses? E.g. you can make an objective statement so long as you specify the exact frame of reference. And in QM, you can assign objective probabilities. So I guess all scientific proofs must be probability based. Its just that a lot of the time the probabilities are so high, noone bothers.

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