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Proving a fraction involving infinity tends to 0

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Reply 40
DFranklin

Sorry, but what v-zero posted was pretty much nonsense.

Nope, it was not. :woo:
DFranklin

Sorry, but what v-zero posted was pretty much nonsense. Whereas you would be very unlucky to lose a single mark for leaving out "n0\forall n \ge 0" in what I posted. For example, it's the kind of thing that a "university analysis professor" wouldn't bat an eyelid over.


I genuinely despise getting into arguments involving this level of pedantry. Despite this, I feel obliged to inform you that you are missing my point. Which was, that the v-zero's response was not designed to be a proof that would pass the standards of a "university analysis professor". As such, your argument above, outlining that a "university analysis professor" wouldn't bat an eyelid over your omission seems of little relevance.
Reply 42
Kolya
Having hung around D&D too much, I've heard some bizarre comparisons in my time on TSR, but that must be the most puzzling response that I have seen on TSR. You're taking a rejection of a silly objection to a proof (obviously nNn \in \mathbb{N} because it was a term in a series?), and comparing it to racism on the London Underground? :lolwut:

Isn't it excellent that our right to draw ridiculous comparisons is not limited by any requirement of proper definition or rigour?

As for the Maths, surely it is plain that in this case if you can prove it for nRn \in \mathbb{R} it is proven for nNn \in \mathbb{N} ?
Reply 43
There's a difference between an implicit (and obvious) assumption that nNn \in \mathbb{N} and something that's really inappropriate like introducing the log function and needing a number of results from calculus in a first analysis course.

DFranklin regularly posts helpful comments on a wide range of questions and I feel a little respect is needed.
Reply 44
v-zero
Isn't it excellent that our right to draw ridiculous comparisons is not limited by any requirement of proper definition or rigour?

As for the Maths, surely it is plain that in this case if you can prove it for nRn \in \mathbb{R} it is proven for nNn \in \mathbb{N} ?


Another piece of ******** that v-zero has come out with it. This question requires natural numbers (or was it the postive real numbers? (well one of the many questions asked do - which one - it is hard to keep track of))). Yet another rpiece of annoying smuggness that you believe you can pedanitcally argue your 'superior' and petty false tricks in order to "weaken" the arguments of the only people who have actually tried to help you. Get a life you dickhead.
DeanK2
Another piece of ******** that v-zero has come out with it. This question requires natural numbers (or was it the postive real numbers? (well one of the many questions asked do - which one - it is hard to keep track of))). Yet another rpiece of annoying smuggness that you believe you can pedanitcally argue your 'superior' and petty false tricks in order to "weaken" the arguments of the only people who have actually tried to help you. Get a life you dickhead.


You may wish to try writing that again. This time, it would be great if it could be in English. Alternatively, don't bother. You probably didn't say anything useful anyway.:rolleyes:
Reply 46
DeanK2
Another piece of ******** that v-zero has come out with it. This question requires natural numbers (or was it the postive real numbers? (well one of the many questions asked do - which one - it is hard to keep track of))). Yet another rpiece of annoying smuggness that you believe you can pedanitcally argue your 'superior' and petty false tricks in order to "weaken" the arguments of the only people who have actually tried to help you. Get a life you dickhead.

I couldn't see much of an argument for all the whining.

I don't lack respect for these people, in several past posts I have noted both their Mathematical superiority, and their greater knowledge - and when they have posted something particularly pleasing and I have seen it, I have often commented as such.
Tried to help me? Oh no no... They have done little or nothing of the sort.

Of what "petty false tricks" you speak I do not know.

Un+1= aUn +b.
next term after Un is n+1/3^n+1
this makes:
Un+1= Un((n+1)/3n)

L= L((n+1)/3n)
L(1-((n+1)/3n))=0
for (n+1)/3n:
both n+1 and 3n have a limit of infinity, as is seen by examining them in recurrence relation format:
in n+1:
a is one, so will not influence terms but b, equal to one, a constant positive is being added to each term to make the next one, increasing the value of each successive term by an equal amount ,
in 3n:
, a is 1, so will not influence terms but b is 3, a constant postive is being added to each term to make the next one,increasing the value of each successive term by an equal amount. .
so the fraction, at limit, becomes infinity/infinity=0
this means :
L(1-0)=0
so L=0

why was i neg repped for my proof?
i got neg rep, and a comment of "die". bit harsh, if it wasn't a joke.
not fair, i always get negged for stupid reasons...
my proof is perfectly valid, even if there are simpler, more sensible ones.
Reply 48
v-zero
I couldn't see much of an argument for all the whining.

I don't lack respect for these people, in several past posts I have noted both their Mathematical superiority, and their greater knowledge - and when they have posted something particularly pleasing and I have seen it, I have often commented as such.
Tried to help me? Oh no no... They have done little or nothing of the sort.

Of what "petty false tricks" you speak I do not know.


If you prove n is an element of R you cannot assume that n is an element of the natural numbers.

i can prove 2.5 is an element of R. I know N is a subset of R. However, 2.5 certainly does not belong in the natural numbers. (Infinite many counterexamples).
Reply 49
Right, I feel this has gone far enough, I am begining to become annoyed by my own level of childishness as well as that of others and have decided that I will put my opinion second to my sanity. I cannot condone sustained conflict, even on an internet forum, it is repulsive to my better nature. As such I apologise to anybody who feels I have misstepped the boundaries of relevance and fairness into the realms of misanthropy and anger. I originally posted with good intentions, and I would prefer not to forget that in the heat of a pointless argument.
Reply 50
DeanK2
If you prove n is an element of R you cannot assume that n is an element of the natural numbers.

i can prove 2.5 is an element of R. I know N is a subset of R. However, 2.5 certainly does not belong in the natural numbers. (Infinite many counterexamples).

In general I do not disagree, however in the context of the question it is enough to prove it for all real numbers.
Reply 51
v-zero
In general I do not disagree, however in the context of the question it is enough to prove it for all real numbers.


Yes - so why did you assume n is an element of the natural numbers (I am just assuming that for the question you are talking about this is valid - I actually have lost count as to how many people have decidided to post up their own little sequence / question) etc.
Reply 52
Guys, can we try to keep this on topic, please? Thanks :smile:
Reply 53
DeanK2
Yes - so why did you assume n is an element of the natural numbers (I am just assuming that for the question you are talking about this is valid - I actually have lost count as to how many people have decidided to post up their own little sequence / question) etc.

Because he was talking about a series summation, and it seemed (to me) implicit. I actually assumed they were members of the integers (but that's a moot and quasi-pedantic point), and hence a solution that involved all real numbers was equally valid.
Reply 54
v-zero
Because he was talking about a series summation, and it seemed (to me) implicit. I actually assumed they were members of the integers (but that's a moot and quasi-pedantic point), and hence a solution that involved all real numbers was equally valid.


Was this the f(n) / g(n) question at the start?
Reply 55
The question was how to prove that the limit of n3n\frac{n}{3^n} equals zero as n tends to positive infinity.
Reply 56
The solution is to use the result n2nn\leq 2^{n} (which is easily proved using induction) and the comparison test.
Reply 57
v-zero
The question was how to prove that the limit of n3n\frac{n}{3^n} equals zero as n tends to positive infinity.


That is clearly not a summation question - I could put n into any class (bar the obvious examples - complex, negaitive R, etc), and still derive this result.

Assuming n to be natural or real is hardly important as we asked for the limit as n tends to infinity - a slog of boring derivitives or a slick use of l'hopitals rulee?
Reply 58
DeanK2
That is clearly not a summation question - I could put n into any class (bar the obvious examples - complex, negaitive R, etc), and still derive this result.


Why don't you read the first post in this thread? He makes mention that this featured in a summation question. It is not a summation question in itself, but it derives thereof.
v-zero
However, are you seriously arguing that supposing the groundwork was in place, that the limit of one divided by a term tending to infinity is not zero?

Of course I'm not, but you didn't attempt to put that groundwork in place. I don't think you even went anywhere near taking a quotient. You stated that n > log n / log 3, and therefore 3^n > n. Perfectly true, and this gives us that n / 3^n < 1. We also know that, if n is positive, 0 < n / 3^n < 1, and it's perfectly possible to show by arm-waving that n / 3^n gets smaller as n gets bigger, because as n changes to n+1, the denominator increases by a factor of 3 and the numerator doesn't increase nearly that fast. I don't know whether you expected us to work all this out ourselves from your one inequality... however, none of this shows that it converges to zero. It might very easily tend to 0.000001 from above.

v-zero
Lastly I want to make something clear: I was posting a plausible and understandable method, not a proof, and that was always my intention.

Yes, but it wasn't correct. This isn't pedantry, or 'prudishness'. Your method simply wasn't right, and SimonM has pointed out a perfectly good counterexample which you seem to refuse to accept. It might seem intuitively obvious that it's true, but the things you were claiming are simply false. I'm sorry if you feel we've been rather rude to you, but it remains true that what you wrote wasn't just "unrigorous", and we're not just being pretentious arses - what you wrote was logically completely incorrect, and it's important that this is pointed out, not necessarily for your benefit (though I'd have hoped you'd like to learn from your own mistakes and not just dismiss it as mindless criticism), but for the benefit of anyone else - like the OP - who might have an interest in this kind of stuff. And, of course, for the pure intellectual honesty of answering the question correctly rather than giving an intuitive, but incorrect, reasoning as to why the limit of that sequence is as claimed.

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