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Does God Exist?

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    (Original post by roots)
    Every resolute Muslim I know agrees that this man is a free-radical and interprets the Qur'an how he wants to make it appear intellectually bankrupt

    You said every Muslim i wont ask you for that, ill be nice, give me a statement from every single Muslim scholar agreeing to your view!
    i think you missed the "i know" part at the end. i'm pretty sure it's possible for him to give you a written statement from every muslim person he knows if he was sad enough.
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    (Original post by n1r4v)
    Are personal reasons could enough though. I think you've accepted that the human mind is limited, if God cannot be fully comprehended by it - I think it's known that the human mind is infinitely fallible, and therefore if you yourself accept this, then how can you be sure that your "personal reasons" are valid?
    God knows my reasons, and how valid they are - and He, as we know, is infallible in every respect. If my belief in God were founded by my fallibility, should that detract from my belief? I'd have thought it should strengthen it; knowing that, as we are as far from perfect as is possible, we need something which is infallible on which to rely.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    I believe no one can say with a 100% certainty either way.
    This pretty much sums it up as far as my opinion goes.
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    God is an idea, no more or less plausible than any other idea. I personally believe in a God, but as I've explained elsewhere the definition of the word God might need a little streamlining. I believe in a creator, somewhere along the lines, perhaps not even omnipotent nor omniscient, but somehow above and beyond our insignificant abilities. I cannot justify this belief, I just perceive the Universe as more than coincidence and have used my logic (illogical though others will feel it is) to come to this conclusion. As I've explained before, the religious idea of God is hopelessly naive and over-blown, based on human vanity. However, the basic idea of a God is not without merit, nor entirely without hope. Unfortunately, people use God for their own egos, to make themselves seem somehow important. Religion has gained a lot of power from manipulating people into their 'tunnel-vision' ideas of God.

    Maintain an open mind, for goodness' sake.
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    I think it really depends on the level of curiosity you have.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    Believing in God is an irrational choice.
    It isn't.

    The belief in the existence of God is perfectly reasonable when we consider natural theology.

    Have a read of Aquinas' "Summa Theologica"
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    (Original post by yawn)
    It isn't.

    The belief in the existence of God is perfectly reasonable when we consider natural theology.

    Have a read of Aquinas' "Summa Theologica"
    Natural theology does not explain why one should believe in any other than the deist's God. And, I need not mention that all of Aquinas' arguments so far, have failed.
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    Has anyone on this forum actually read Summa? Most copies I've seen are several volumes big, and I doubt will be accessible to anyone who isn't at university.

    Needless to say, Aquinas is far from cutting edge on modern natural theology. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find many philosophers who endorse any of his arguments, especially in the form you find them there.
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    (Original post by GregoryJL)
    Has anyone on this forum actually read Summa? Most copies I've seen are several volumes big, and I doubt will be accessible to anyone who isn't at university.

    Needless to say, Aquinas is far from cutting edge on modern natural theology. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find many philosophers who endorse any of his arguments, especially in the form you find them there.
    Out of interest Greg - have you read his "Five Ways"?
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    i believe in God because its logical. what initiated the ''beginning''? how easily would you accept that your computer, for example assembled all the necessary parts of itself by pure chance?
    these are a couple of the questions i thought about. its easy to start thinking about God's ''personality'' as religons imply, but for me, independent thinking is the way.
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    (Original post by blip)
    what initiated the ''beginning''?
    Invoking God doesn't solve that problem.

    how easily would you accept that your computer, for example assembled all the necessary parts of itself by pure chance?
    Bad analogy is bad.
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    My theory is that those who believe in the bible can't be arsed to understand science.
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    (Original post by Laith)
    My theory is that those who believe in the bible can't be arsed to understand science.
    Wrong in its entirety...I'll get back to you when I've had my banana and peanut butter on toast, washed down with a cup of breakfast finest tea. :drool:

    And after you've explained your theory and subsequent conclusion.
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    (Original post by blip)
    i believe in God because its logical. what initiated the ''beginning''? how easily would you accept that your computer, for example assembled all the necessary parts of itself by pure chance?
    these are a couple of the questions i thought about. its easy to start thinking about God's ''personality'' as religons imply, but for me, independent thinking is the way.
    Okay, so you pull out the 'so where did it all come from' card. By the same logic, where did God come from ?
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    (Original post by Yawn)
    Out of interest Greg - have you read his "Five Ways"?
    If I did, I'm afraid it has long faded into the fog of my memory. It took a google to recall what they were. That said, I'm reasonably well aware of their modern incarnations (Cosmological, Teleological and Moral arguments.) As you can guess, I think they are unsound arguments - and given the rise of Reformed Epistemology, quite a few Christians think they are, at least, unpersuasive.
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    well all your talk of logic seem's a little ...backwards for me?

    lets assume for a minute (hypothetically) that god with his infinate knowledge and power created the universe for the sake of this post this is a FACT anyway so we know he exist's and he creates these people, he makes the capable of free will and it's not long before they begin to question the world that they were placed into, they want to understant it.

    BUT for the moment at least they have limited intelligence, limited power, they simply cannot comprehend the complexities of creating everything.(think explaining a V8 engine to a dog) so god has to create a system for them to understand the universe so he gives them the ability of logic, to break down and understand the universe peace-meal, he gives them reason to expand thier logic and immagination to jump beyond it.
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    Hi, I moved our discussion over to this thread

    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Where did the bible come from? Well contrary to popular christian belief god didn't come down to earth and started handing down copies. So where did it come from? Well some stupid ancients wrote some random crap, what is in the bible today, known as the " new testament " was decided at The council of Nicaea. Basically they voted on what gospels should be considered true and which ones should be dismissed. ( This is because many gospels actually contradict eachother, from whether Jesus was a god, a man or a prophet, to timelines and major events, laws etc )
    So so far we have the " church " and the Roman Emperor Constantine decide what to put in the bible. ( DEFENELTY GOD'S WORK!! LAWL. Considering Constantine wasn't even a christian, he was bapdized before he died, the only reason he switched to Christianity was because of the Civil war, he didn't want his empire torn apart. Also, the reason he held the council was to smooth over the transition from Pagan to Christian, Thats why many holidays overlap with the pagan religion) Anyway, moving on.

    So apart from the fact that a bunch of *******s sat around in a circle diciding what was the word of god and what was not the word of god.
    Christians don’t believe that God came down and started handing out copies. The original authors wrote them down, and then they have been meticulously copied over the centuries , always referring back to the originals. Many of the gnostic gospels might be false interpretations of Jesus etc, which is why they’re not part of the canonised Bible.

    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Let's tackle gospel chronology a bit. The first gospel, was the gospel of mark. Now the gospel of mark talks about the destruction of the jewish temple which was sometime around 70 Common Era. So since the first thing mentioned was the destruction..it could not have been written before then. The estimated time of the gospels are around 100 CE. Now mind you, jesus is only mentioned in the gospels and no where else. So..if jesus was such a great man, if he existed, if he performed such miracles, why not even ONE historian bothered to write about him during his time? The only people who wrote about him were some lunatics who everyone though were crazy, and the first one wrote at least 60 years later... Why if he was such a great man, no one bothered to write about him during the time which he was alive?
    Now that i pointed out the chronology is completly off and no historian wrote about jesus, meaning that the gospels were exagerations at best. And that what was written in the gospels was then re-edited at the council of nicaea, lets tackle a bigger issue. You said there is evidence of the world created by the christian god. Actually there ISN'T. The only evidence we have found has been proving evolution, science, not god.
    Actually, that’s not when the Bible documents were written. The Gospels were written 25-50 years after Jesus’ death- well within the lifetime of eyewitnesses. Two of the Gospel accounts were eyewitnesses and disciples- that is, Matthew and John. Mark was Peter’s personal companion and scribe, and Luke was a historian asking the people at the time what happened and he knew the disciples well.
    It’s not the only place Jesus is mentioned, either. Paul references Jesus countless times, as does the other New Testament writers such as James, the other Johanine literature (his three letters and revelation)
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    You say there is nothing wrong in the bible. Let's see a few contradictions. " It is wrong to have sex with your sister ( even a doctor can tell you that ) yet they say the human population started from Adam and Eve, who then had 100 children, and the children had incestous sex with eachother, and made more retarded babies. And some how some became asian, black, etc. ( yeah theres no gap in that " theory " at all )
    It doesn’t say that Adam and Eve had 100 children, just that they had many children. Plus, you’re forgetting that God would have been in control of this- if God created the universe, then it is illogical to presume He could not have helped with the human race by preventing them from having genetic mutations etc.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    This also started over with noah's ark and his retarded sons. And never mind the fact that there are millions upon millions of species of animals and plants that could not have survived upon an ark built out of wood. Never mind the fact that there are plants and animals only present in south america...which makes you wonder why are they only present there? Never mind the fact that there is no indication of a hugeass flood on earth. Never mind the fact that the earth ISNT flat, and that it does indeed orbit the sun.
    It doesn’t say anything about plants, simply ‘two of every animal’. The Bible never says anywhere that the earth isn’t flat. I’m not sure what your point about South America refers to it.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Nevermind all those things that are completely wrong in the bible, and lets forget all the contradictions, such as , not seeking revenge, and then..." an eye for an eye ". Plus the " 101 reasons to stone your neighbour " special edition.
    The New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament, not a contradiction. Punishment for sin in the Old Testament was always atoned by death, either by animal sacrifices or the stoning of people. We all deserve death and eternal separation from God for our sin (our rebellion against God). However, in the New Testament, Jesus is our sacrifice, and so we don’t need to be punished anymore for our rebellion against God because Jesus has taken the punishment for us.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Lets forget all those things wrong with it.
    I don’t believe there is anything wrong with the Bible.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Why, did it take THOUSANDS of years for the " right god " to appear onto us?
    It didn’t . God has been with His people from day 1, when God created Adam and Eve. He was with His people in the Old Testament and Jesus has been revealed to us in the New Testament, and Christians have the Holy Spirit until Christ returns to judge all people on how they have treated each other and how they have treated God.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    And why did it not do so in other places? Why were there and still are so many places who do not even know there is a " christian god" ? You can't answer any of these, because religion is thought up. Not only that...but it was thought up a LONG LONG time ago. When people were much stupider than they are now. It is much easier now, for us, to poke holes in the bible, because they are aparant.
    The places where Christianity is not known are getting fewer and fewer in number. That is why there is so much emphasis in evangelism, so that Christians can tell the Gospel to people so they can make their own decision on whether to accept or reject Jesus.
    (Original post by Zamolxes)
    Science has revealed much. I just hope one day, it enlightens you too, so that you do not die an ignorant fool.
    I agree we can learn much from science, but I don’t believe science and the Christian faith are contradictory.
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    Firslty I don't think God exists. Gods and religions have always been used to cover the unknowns of human knowledge i.e. at one point, the creation of the universe and human beings. Nowadays there are an large amount of things that we still do not know, e.g. areas of neuoroscience and areas of physics such as dark matter, dark energy and quantum gravity, but if humans continue to push the boundaries of science and gain answers, the need for a God may disappear.

    However, for some people (myself included) the ideas in some religions seem comforting, especially those regarding life after death. The science of death, suggesting that you basically become "worm food" is cold and not nice. Also, for those who have experienced a loss or are close to death, religion and a God gives them hope and assurance that their loved ones or themselves will be okay. From a physchological scientific point of view, this is comparable to maintaining a relationship with an invisible friend.

    Finally, whatever people want to believe in is fine with me - makes life more interesting (as well as causing millions of death due to the spread and enforcement of the abrahamic religions). The fact that we classify ancient relgions such as the belief system followed by the Greeks, Romans, Egyptions, Middle East and Norse, as mythological, suggests that in thousands of years, our current religions will be universally accepted as hocum. All that said, a lot of religion can be good taken in the right way - teachings in the religions can be quite similar and tend to have the same general message; be the best person you can be & be nice to others, as well as providing us with interesting story books.
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    Science and christianity are definately not related in anyway. The fact is people who are part of a faith, obviously need that for themselves, and shouldn't be badgered by people who don't agree with them. I mean just taking christianity for example; the Bible is undoubtedly the biggest piece of propaganda EVER created. Jesus, if he did exists, was probably equivalent to a modern day Barack Obama. The disciples were probably his election team.
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    As for all these arguments about the fact that there must be some intelligent desinger, with the watch and what not. Who created the watchmaker?

    Beginning of the Bible: "in the beginning there was nothing... then God" If there was nothing, where has God come from.

    Another thing as well, those of you who have half a brain or have read the Da Vinci Code will already have realised this. The fact is how do we imagine God - as an old man with long white hair, sounds familiar right? it's Zeus, who came from a civilisation predating the wonderful beginning of Judaism. There are MANY similar stories that were spread over Europe and the Middle East, (see El for those looking for more religious parallels). Birth of Jesus is similar to Krisha's, and the teachings are the same (but reworded) as the Buddha, Prince Sidharta. There are even religions attempting to consolidate all the existing religions into one affordable, all-encompassing religion, hence the reason the Lotus Temple was built. Keeping religion is futile and will lead to the degredation of society. The answer lie in science and whether or not we will ever achieve these answers has nothing to do with religion.
Updated: August 21, 2012
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