[blip]

(Original post by Smtn)
Okay, so you pull out the 'so where did it all come from' card. By the same logic, where did God come from ?

if god created time, he isn't constrained to past,present and future. i think it all comes down to a single source of power, whether you think its ''god'' or your great aunt thats another matter.
just out of interest, what are your personal beliefs?

[Smtn]

(Original post by blip)
if god created time, he isn't constrained to past,present and future. i think it all comes down to a single source of power, whether you think its ''god'' or your great aunt thats another matter.
just out of interest, what are your personal beliefs?

So he just 'existed' ? Convenient.


..I'm a Pastafarian.

[jmj]

(Original post by Erebus)
As for all these arguments about the fact that there must be some intelligent desinger, with the watch and what not. Who created the watchmaker?

Beginning of the Bible: "in the beginning there was nothing... then God" If there was nothing, where has God come from.

May I ask you to look up a verse before you quote it? This verse is misquoted all the time. What it actually says is 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' it says nothing about there being nothing

[Erebus]

(Original post by jmj)
May I ask you to look up a verse before you quote it? This verse is misquoted all the time. What it actually says is 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' it says nothing about there being nothing

I actually just checked a copy of the Bible (a red Gideons version) and it says "in the beginning there was nothing. Then God created...". So we must have different versions.

[jmj]

(Original post by Erebus)
Science and christianity are definately not related in anyway. The fact is people who are part of a faith, obviously need that for themselves, and shouldn't be badgered by people who don't agree with them. I mean just taking christianity for example; the Bible is undoubtedly the biggest piece of propaganda EVER created. Jesus, if he did exists, was probably equivalent to a modern day Barack Obama. The disciples were probably his election team.

Actually Jesus was despised and hated by a lot of people- that's why he was crucified because Jesus claimed to be God and the Pharisees didn't like that one bit. Also, it doesn't exactly sound like propaganda, e.g. Jesus' body was discovered missing by women, which would have been ridiculous to put if it wasn't true as a woman's testimony was half as believable as a man's- it took two women to stand up to one man in court. Also, the disciples frequently make themselves out to be stupid.

Have you ever read the Bible?

[jmj]

(Original post by Erebus)
I actually just checked a copy of the Bible (a red Gideons version) and it says "in the beginning there was nothing. Then God created...". So we must have different versions.

Sorry- that's really interesting, I just checked on Bible Gateway and most versions don't include the bit about there being nothing.

[Erebus]

(Original post by jmj)
Sorry- that's really interesting, I just checked on Bible Gateway and most versions don't include the bit about there being nothing.

Well, I'd expect a Gideons version to be in the "most versions". To be fair mate, I would suspect now in hein-sight that your version is correct, only because the authors of the Bible wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave such a massive contradiction in the first line.

[jmj]

(Original post by Erebus)
Well, I'd expect a Gideons version to be in the "most versions". To be fair mate, I would suspect now in hein-sight that your version is correct, only because the authors of the Bible wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave such a massive contradiction in the first line.

The most literal translations are the English Standard Version and the King James Version, and neither of those said anything about nothing. Bible gateway doesn't even seem to have the Gideons version online

[blip]

(Original post by Smtn)
So he just 'existed' ? Convenient.

yep, similar to the way the big bang happened and the universe just came into existence.

[Smtn]

(Original post by blip)
yep, similar to the way the big bang happened and the universe just came into existence.

So then did this God go on to create Earth within 7 days, or did he just chill for a couple of billion years while evolution took it cause?

[blip]

(Original post by Smtn)
So then did this God go on to create Earth within 7 days, or did he just chill for a couple of billion years while evolution took it cause?

that doesnt matter. the question is, does god exist?

[yawn]

(Original post by Erebus)
I actually just checked a copy of the Bible (a red Gideons version) and it says "in the beginning there was nothing. Then God created...". So we must have different versions.

"In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God." [John: Chapter 1]

[yawn]

I forgot to thank you guys...Uni and Simon...for your work in removing the puerile, spammy comments from Religion D&D.

It's about time it was treated equitably by posters as the other two sub-forums in D&D are.

[Magnum Opus]

I think I thanked them though

There seems to be some debate about the Genesis 1:1? I can look it up in the Greek NT if anyone wants?

edit: WTF am I talking about?! I meant the Hebrew Tanakh

edit edit: What verse are we even talking about? John 1:1? If so, that's not the beginning of the Bible

[Magnum Opus]

(Original post by Erebus)
As for all these arguments about the fact that there must be some intelligent desinger, with the watch and what not. Who created the watchmaker? God is in the most highest transcendent plane, nothing can create Him but Himself because nothing is above Him

Beginning of the Bible: "in the beginning there was nothing... then God" If there was nothing, where has God come from. I'm confused where this is coming from, it is neither in the beginning of the NT or OT in any versions of the Bible I have... inluding Greek and Hebrew

Another thing as well, those of you who have half a brain or have read the Da Vinci Code will already have realised this The Da Vinci Code is a Fictional story, even said so by the author. It is just one of many 'theories' about things, often misinterpreted. The fact is how do we imagine God - as an old man with long white hair, sounds familiar right? Yes, because Christianity spread into the Roman Empire and Greek civilisation, you can tell this by how heavily Christian art is influenced by these periods. This depiction of God did not come from Judaism (in fact it is strictly prohibited) nor the Bible. It is just a representation of something, very scarcely used as well actually, often you will find some sort of glow which indicates the transcendent. it's Zeus, who came from a civilisation predating the wonderful beginning of Judaism As I said, Judaism prohibits such use, the mere fact that you are using the example of a representation of God very rarely used (or even 'allowed') shows how selective you are being here. There are MANY similar stories that were spread over Europe and the Middle East, (see El for those looking for more religious parallels). Birth of Jesus is similar to Krisha's, and the teachings are the same (but reworded) as the Buddha, Prince Sidharta so if I get both scriptures and compare, I should expect to find the exact same teaching, but in a different language? Here, you need to actually think a tiny bit. The God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam for example are the same God, so yes, there are going to be similarities, seeing as God is unchangeable.. There are even religions attempting to consolidate all the existing religions into one affordable, all-encompassing religion, hence the reason the Lotus Temple was built. Keeping religion is futile and will lead to the degredation of society I don't see what this has got to do with anything, let alone how 'statementatic' this is. The answer lie in science and whether or not we will ever achieve these answers has nothing to do with religion Then why even mention this? I'm confused why you just mention science as if science and religion are like one religion vs another. In effect, I could simply rebuke that by saying they are the same thing.

Hope this helps

[Magnum Opus]

(Original post by Smtn)
So then did this God go on to create Earth within 7 days, or did he just chill for a couple of billion years while evolution took it cause?

Some examples of 7 in the Old Testament: the first creation story in Genesis, written during or just after the Babylonian Exile, has seven days; Noah took every clean beast and every bird by sevens, and in seven days it rained; Jacob served seven years for Leah and seven years for Rachel; Egypt had seven years of plenty and seven years of famine.

The New Testament has the seven loaves and fishes; seven devils exorcised from Mary Magdalene; forgiveness seventy times seven. Also, Revelation has seven churches and many symbols are seven fold, usually because of the 7 angels (archangels). Luke's Gospel demonstrates that Jesus was predestined for greatness because great men occurred in multiples of seven generations starting from Adam, Enoch at 7, Abraham at 21, David at 35 and Jesus at 77, while Matthew demonstrates that Jesus was predestined for greatness because there were 14 generations from Josiah to Jesus, just as there had been 14 generations from David to Josiah and from Abraham to David (14 being 2 times 7). There were seven heavens and the apocryphal Ascension of Isaiah had the Son descend into the lower world and then re-ascend to the seventh heaven.

In Genesis, God created the earth in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested. This was the first week. Also in Acts, there were seven deacons of the church.

Basically, the number 7 is usually equated with the idea of perfection.

[yawn]

(Original post by arisk01)
edit edit: What verse are we even talking about? John 1:1? If so, that's not the beginning of the Bible

I was countering this:

"in the beginning there was nothing.

God was there, yes? Genesis however is the book of 'beginning[strike]'. The first 11 chapters relate in historical form the biblical view of certain universal truths, the dependence of the universe of a creator, the place of human beings within this universe, their special relationship to the creator, their special dignityh, their ineradicable tendency to failyre and the repeated need of the creator to succour and forige.

However, Genesis does not provide evidence to the atheist of God's existence, since they do not accept the Bible as anything other than a story book.

The only way to debate with atheists is to offer discussion in language that they can relate to, and to remind them that the existence of God is at least reasonable - if not 'self-evident' and good reasons are generally what we find in the so-called proofs or demonstrations. All demonstations are reducible either to direct sensory experience ("seeing is believing") or so-called quia proofs, that is arguments reasoning backward from evidence, from effects to a necessary cause of those effects.

Since "no one has ever seen God" (1 Jn. 4:12), all demonstrations from His existence are quia demonstrations.

[yawn]

But, entering into the spirit of the preceeding debate, and referring to your post

(Original post by arisk01)
There seems to be some debate about the Genesis 1:1? I can look it up in the Greek NT if anyone wants?

edit: WTF am I talking about?! I meant the Hebrew Tanakh

....

This first account of the creation seeks to present the relationship between the known world and God. It is not a day-by-day historical account, but the order is logical. (framework vv. 3-10, immovable objects, vv 11-13, movable objects, vv 14-31). The climax is the creation of human beings. It also seeks, with the emphasis of the priestly tradition, to show that the seventh-day rest on the Sabbath is part of the structure of reality.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was a formless void..."

The Hebrew is tohu and bohu. It is not creation out of nothingness, but a sense of bringing order out of chaos, or shape and form to that which had none. Not to have shape or form amounts to non-existence.

[Erebus]

(Original post by arisk01)
Hope this helps

science - an area based on theories that are proved true or false. Any true theories are then used, and any false theories ridden of.

religion - a system of beliefs .

God making the world in seven days is comparable to starting a new game on the SIMs.

People who want to equate science and religion as one and the same, simply use religion to fill in the gaps of human knowledge. I know an american professor (family friend), who has degrees in all three sciences (supposedly) but remains a devout christian. He says stuff like the big bang is true, but it needed God to make it happen. Clearly this is just religion filling in the gaps. He says life started due to the influence of God. Again religion filling in the gaps. Religion is simply an available tool to help all people sleep at night so that they don't worry about things they can never understand.

[Erebus]

(Original post by arisk01)
The Da Vinci Code is a Fictional story, even said so by the author. It is just one of many 'theories' about things, often misinterpreted. The fact is how do we imagine God - as an old man with long white hair, sounds familiar right? Yes, because Christianity spread into the Roman Empire and Greek civilisation, you can tell this by how heavily Christian art is influenced by these periods.

Firslty, Da Vinci Code is more believable than the Bible, and frankly it makes better reading (despite the old testament containing some interesting sub-plots and twists).

Christianity spread into the ancient Greek civilisation? Didn't christianity start at the (supposed) birth of christ? Wouldn't that have been after the ancient Greeks?