[Xotol]

(Original post by elkana)
What? It's more logical that the world created itself then that it was created?

What? It's more logical that the creator created itself then that it was created?

[anillatoo]

God does exist as we know only about 0.000000001% of the universe.

[Gofre]

(Original post by anillatoo)
God does exist as we know only about 0.000000001% of the universe.

How the heck does our lack of knowledge mean that god exists?

[anillatoo]

(Original post by Gofre)

How the heck does our lack of knowledge mean that god exists?

Our lack of knowledge means we will never know what happened before the big bang, if there are other universes out there and the ultimate question where did we come from... We just know too little about our universe to assume God does not exist. Also, I watch a documentary one time when it says how much lucky we are that Earth is just in the right place in the solar system. Coincidence? I don't think so!

[Gofre]

(Original post by anillatoo)
Our lack of knowledge means we will never know what happened before the big bang, if there are other universes out there and the ultimate question where did we come from... We just know too little about our universe to assume God does not exist. Also, I watch a documentary one time when it says how much lucky we are that Earth is just in the right place in the solar system. Coincidence? I don't think so!

A) You're right, we will never know if god doesn't exist. That doesn't give evidence for gods existence at all.
B) The fact that our universe is so woefully unsuited to life as a whole points just as much to happenstance as you think it does to god. Even our own planet is completely inhospitable in some places, while other places barely let the people living there survive and other places are plagued with natural disasters which kill people by the thousand. If this design is deliberate, then your god is pretty evil.

[anillatoo]

(Original post by Gofre)
A) You're right, we will never know if god doesn't exist. That doesn't give evidence for gods existence at all.
B) The fact that our universe is so woefully unsuited to life as a whole points just as much to happenstance as you think it does to god. Even our own planet is completely inhospitable in some places, while other places barely let the people living there survive and other places are plagued with natural disasters which kill people by the thousand. If this design is deliberate, then your god is pretty evil.

I am not really religious, more like a deist. For your argument about natural disasters, I think you should count yourself lucky that it doesn't happen where you live and hence why you should be grateful to God.

[Silverngold]

I believe in God.

If I am wrong then fair enough, I will die and nothing will happen, I will rot in the ground.

If I am right I will spend eternity in heaven.

If you don't believe and you are right, again nothing will happen, you will also rot in the ground.

If you are wrong, then you will spend eternity in hell.

I don't think I want to take the chance.

[frankieboy]

(Original post by Silverngold)
If you are wrong, then you will spend eternity in hell.

Wrong. Common misconception. If you're talking about it in religious terms, you only go to hell if you want to go to hell. If that's your belief, of course...

You can, in theory, be a non believer, die, and still go to heaven. Assuming you want to go, and heaven exists, of course.

[Silverngold]

Sorry you misunderstood I am talking about Jesus Christ and Christianity to go to heaven you have to believe and devote your life to God.

[Xotol]

(Original post by Silverngold)
I believe in God.

If I am wrong then fair enough, I will die and nothing will happen, I will rot in the ground.

If I am right I will spend eternity in heaven.

If you don't believe and you are right, again nothing will happen, you will also rot in the ground.

If you are wrong, then you will spend eternity in hell.

I don't think I want to take the chance.

You have just described Pascal's wager. It's a piss poor logical argument, I'm afraid.

There are two main problems with your line of thinking:

1) If this is the reason you believe in your version of God, you will probably not go to heaven anyway. You're supposed to believe in God because of love; not because you want to save your sorry ass if it turns out he exists.

2) Your God is not the only one that could exist. There are an infinite number of invisible beings (Zeus, Thor, Quetzalcoatl...) that you could anger by falsely believing in your version of God, so the chances are that you will go to hell anyway. Why are you wasting your time believing in your version of God when the probability is virtually just as remote as not believing?

Pascal's wager is as nonsensical as they come.

Also, you might want to brush up on your logical fallacies, beginning with the false dilemma.

[Silverngold]

(Original post by Xotol)
You have just described Pascal's wager. It's a piss poor logical argument, I'm afraid.

There are two main problems with your line of thinking:

1) If this is the reason you believe in your version of God, you will probably not go to heaven anyway. You're supposed to believe in God because of love; not because you want to save your sorry ass if it turns out he exists.

2) Your God is not the only one that could exist. There are an infinite number of invisible beings (Zeus, Thor, Quetzalcoatl...) that you could anger by falsely believing in your version of God, so the chances are that you will go to hell anyway. Why are you wasting your time believing in your version of God when the probability is virtually just as remote as not believing?

Pascal's wager is as nonsensical as they come.

Also, you might want to brush up on your logical fallacies, beginning with the false dilemma.

I believe in God because I know in my heart that Jesus died on that cross for me, I know that he will always be beside me.

200 or so years ago it would have been abnormal NOT to go to church and be a christian, why have things changed? It is because people have gotten bored. I am a born again Christian and try my best to follow Jesus and do the right thing in every situation.

My comment about believing in God was just to make you think - 'Why not believe in God? What is the worst that could happen' and then it would be your decision to walk into a church or not or to start reading the Bible to find out about what it's all about. How about this, I challenge you to just go to church and see what happens, open yourself up to thinking that there may be a God up there, and you will see the truth.

[sil3nt_cha0s]

(Original post by Silverngold)
I believe in God because I know in my heart that Jesus died on that cross for me, I know that he will always be beside me.

200 or so years ago it would have been abnormal NOT to go to church and be a christian, why have things changed? It is because people have gotten bored. I am a born again Christian and try my best to follow Jesus and do the right thing in every situation.

My comment about believing in God was just to make you think - 'Why not believe in God? What is the worst that could happen' and then it would be your decision to walk into a church or not or to start reading the Bible to find out about what it's all about. How about this, I challenge you to just go to church and see what happens, open yourself up to thinking that there may be a God up there, and you will see the truth.

Things have changed because science has evolved enough to provide an alternative, more rational explanation for how the Earth was created and how organisms have evolved to what they are now.

[Silverngold]

(Original post by sil3nt_cha0s)
Things have changed because science has evolved enough to provide an alternative, more rational explanation for how the Earth was created and how organisms have evolved to what they are now.

Science must not have evolved that much if they still haven't come up with a definite answer on the subject of evolution or find evidence that there isn't a God.

[zuqqer]

Can I just point something out- you will never convince someone that their faith is wrong, it must be their desicion and vice versa. Religion is faith, and (correct me if I'm wrong) faith is not something you can prove or disprove.

[sil3nt_cha0s]

(Original post by Silverngold)
Science must not have evolved that much if they still haven't come up with a definite answer on the subject of evolution or find evidence that there isn't a God.

It's evolving. It's evolved more in the last 200 years than it ever has done before. Obviously there are still gaps in scientific knowledge.

But where's the evidence for your God?

Your logic:

Claim there is a God ------> can't definitively prove there isn't a God ------> there must be a God

Please give your evidence.

[Silverngold]

(Original post by zuqqer)
Can I just point something out- you will never convince someone that their faith is wrong, it must be their desicion and vice versa. Religion is faith, and (correct me if I'm wrong) faith is not something you can prove or disprove.

Hey Zugger,
Religion is not faith. Faith is the complete trust in something. Religion is just a man made thing to describe a way of following your belief.

[zuqqer]

But I put complete faith into my religion... I'm confused

[Silverngold]

(Original post by sil3nt_cha0s)
It's evolving. It's evolved more in the last 200 years than it ever has done before. Obviously there are still gaps in scientific knowledge.

But where's the evidence for your God?

Your logic:

Claim there is a God ------> can't definitively prove there isn't a God ------> there must be a God

Please give your evidence.

God didn't want us to know for definite and have a definite answer, otherwise we would all be like robots, he wanted us to believe in him without the proof so he can distinguish your true faith in him.

The only mere evidence I could suggest is from word of mouth and from scriptures that were written by people who witnessed Jesus heal people for example.

[SsEe]

(Original post by Silverngold)
Science must not have evolved that much if they still haven't come up with a definite answer on the subject of evolution or find evidence that there isn't a God.

Implying that the success of science is measured by its ability to prove evolution or come up with evidence against God. You have to be living in a cave to not see how much more advanced scientific knowledge is now than it was as little as 100 years ago.

Also, the concept of God is so flexible and without the need to be internally consistent that it's immune to counter argument of any kind. If anyone ever came up with a watertight argument against God, the theist could always fall back on something as pathetic as "by using logic to disprove God you're actually proving his existence because God created logic". Not that I care. It's not my job to disprove. It's your job to prove. Until then, the correct action is to reserve judgement. And as has been said, that's probably the safest action. Don't want to annoy any gods by devoting our lives to the wrong one.

[Silverngold]

(Original post by zuqqer)
But I put complete faith into my religion... I'm confused

Therefore if you are suggesting that religion is faith then your sentence would be this - 'But I put complete religion into my religion' or other way around 'I put complete faith into my faith' Faith and religion are different, you are putting your FAITH in RELIGION. They aren't the same thing.