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Does God Exist?

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    (Original post by blip)
    yep, similar to the way the big bang happened and the universe just came into existence.
    how?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    But, entering into the spirit of the preceeding debate, and referring to your post ....

    This first account of the creation seeks to present the relationship between the known world and God. It is not a day-by-day historical account, but the order is logical. (framework vv. 3-10, immovable objects, vv 11-13, movable objects, vv 14-31). The climax is the creation of human beings. It also seeks, with the emphasis of the priestly tradition, to show that the seventh-day rest on the Sabbath is part of the structure of reality.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was a formless void..."

    The Hebrew is tohu and bohu. It is not creation out of nothingness, but a sense of bringing order out of chaos, or shape and form to that which had none. Not to have shape or form amounts to non-existence.
    Firstly, God created humans in one big climax? I think evolution had to take place first.

    Chaos that was a Greek idea also. It's almost scary how similar all religions can be. Well i suppose it is expected seeing as people could move around teh Eurasian continent. Your last paragraph caught my eye though. Is this to do with El and his Elohim? I'm genuinely interested .
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    how?
    what do you mean? :confused:
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    (Original post by blip)
    what do you mean? :confused:
    Sorry for being unclear.


    (Original post by smtn)
    Originally Posted by Smtn
    So he just 'existed' ? Convenient.

    (Original post by blip)
    yep, similar to the way the big bang happened and the universe just came into existence.
    just wondering how they are similar and your thoughts behind this.
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    I assume that question wasn't directed at me
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    Sorry for being unclear.







    just wondering how they are similar and your thoughts behind this.
    i was being a tad sarcastic.
    sorry for confusing you.
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    (Original post by blip)
    i was being a tad sarcastic.
    sorry for confusing you.
    no wonder it didn't make sense!
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    science - an area based on theories that are proved true or false. Any true theories are then used, and any false theories ridden of.

    religion - a system of beliefs .

    God making the world in seven days is comparable to starting a new game on the SIMs.

    People who want to equate science and religion as one and the same, simply use religion to fill in the gaps of human knowledge. I know an american professor (family friend), who has degrees in all three sciences (supposedly) but remains a devout christian. He says stuff like the big bang is true, but it needed God to make it happen. Clearly this is just religion filling in the gaps. He says life started due to the influence of God. Again religion filling in the gaps. Religion is simply an available tool to help all people sleep at night so that they don't worry about things they can never understand.
    there are lots of things that science cannot explain, like love.
    i don't understand the problem with believing that God created the big bang - why can't it be true? is there an alternative explanation?

    the universe could not come into existence spontaneously, there had to be some kind of fuel, or power, that is not confined to space or time, that was the cause. a creator. thankfully, us humans have the ability to think independently, how can logic deny this?

    scientists have shown that a fraction of a second after the big bang, gravity, time etc - the 'laws of the universe' - popped into existence... they didn't evolve to become what they are, it was perfect, fully developed at the time.

    why are you so sure that God does not exist; what was the 'lighbulb' moment?

    i hope that made some sense, its almost 3am ha:o: ! yeh just quote me if you need to.
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    (Original post by blip)
    there are lots of things that science cannot explain, like love.
    i don't understand the problem with believing that God created the big bang - why can't it be true? is there an alternative explanation?

    the universe could not come into existence spontaneously, there had to be some kind of fuel, or power, that is not confined to space or time, that was the cause. a creator. thankfully, us humans have the ability to think independently, how can logic deny this?

    scientists have shown that a fraction of a second after the big bang, gravity, time etc - the 'laws of the universe' - popped into existence... they didn't evolve to become what they are, it was perfect, fully developed at the time.

    why are you so sure that God does not exist; what was the 'lighbulb' moment?

    i hope that made some sense, its almost 3am ha:o: ! yeh just quote me if you need to.
    Well there are theories grounded in physics as to why the big bang occurred. One such theory is that the universe is being re-created again and again, as for example it will expand and then the gravitational force of the universe as a whole is enough to allow the universe to collapse back in on itself, in what's known as the "big crunch". Consequentially, a singularity is formed and the big bang re-occurs. Another theory is that the big bang happened as a result of a collision between the membrane of our universe and the membrane of another. Obviously these are theoretical ideas, to questions we will probably never fully be able to answer.

    Scientists actually show the laws of physics as we know them being broken down. Today there is the search for the GUT (Grand Unified Theory) that will hopefully provide answers to this experiment, as well as data for the LHC (Large Hadron Collider).

    I'm almost certain the God portrayed in many religions is unreal and ficticious. I believe much of religion, especially the abrahamic variety, is propaganda, and has of course brainwashed many. I would like to believe there was some sort of higher power, but I'm increasingly sceptical. Despite this, it's probably worth nothing that coming from Hindu family has influenced me; I pray at our mundir (sort of a shrine) in the house for good luck, and I go to the temple to say thanks, even though I do not believe in God, I cannot dismiss that some sort of higher power does not exist. At least until we have some answers .
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    Hi, Erebus

    (Original post by Erebus)
    Firstly, God created humans in one big climax? I think evolution had to take place first.
    I did say that Genesis was not a "day-to-day historical account" - the climax was the creation of humankind, a climax that could have taken quite a while to come to fruition.

    Your last paragraph caught my eye though. Is this to do with El and his Elohim? I'm genuinely interested .
    No. "Tohu va bohu" is Hebrew for "without form and void" See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tohu_va_bohu

    El, Elohim and Eloah are the three common Hebrew names of God, in addition to the proper name of Yahweh.


    I hope that helps.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Hi, Erebus



    I did say that Genesis was not a "day-to-day historical account" - the climax was the creation of humankind, a climax that could have taken quite a while to come to fruition.



    No. "Tohu va bohu" is Hebrew for "without form and void" See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tohu_va_bohu

    El, Elohim and Eloah are the three common Hebrew names of God, in addition to the proper name of Yahweh.


    I hope that helps.
    That helps yes . I thought that Elohim was the sons of God? As sceptical as I am about religion, it still gives a fascinating insight into the past.
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    Well there are theories grounded in physics as to why the big bang occurred. One such theory is that the universe is being re-created again and again, as for example it will expand and then the gravitational force of the universe as a whole is enough to allow the universe to collapse back in on itself, in what's known as the "big crunch". Consequentially, a singularity is formed and the big bang re-occurs. Another theory is that the big bang happened as a result of a collision between the membrane of our universe and the membrane of another. Obviously these are theoretical ideas, to questions we will probably never fully be able to answer.

    Scientists actually show the laws of physics as we know them being broken down. Today there is the search for the GUT (Grand Unified Theory) that will hopefully provide answers to this experiment, as well as data for the LHC (Large Hadron Collider).

    I'm almost certain the God portrayed in many religions is unreal and ficticious. I believe much of religion, especially the abrahamic variety, is propaganda, and has of course brainwashed many. I would like to believe there was some sort of higher power, but I'm increasingly sceptical. Despite this, it's probably worth nothing that coming from Hindu family has influenced me; I pray at our mundir (sort of a shrine) in the house for good luck, and I go to the temple to say thanks, even though I do not believe in God, I cannot dismiss that some sort of higher power does not exist. At least until we have some answers .

    very interesting!
    the physics theories about how the universe came into existence that you spoke about by no means deny Gods existence. whether our universe is the only one ever, or whether its just one in a string of many is not the point. the universe(s) had to have a beginning at some stage.

    i agree with you when you say that some religions portray god in a manner that suits their purposes and goals. again, just because they fashion God to have a particular character, it doesn't mean that that is God's real nature. there is a lot of things that i cannot find myself agreeing with in some religons. its also fascinating to read that you 'cannot dismiss that some sort of higher power does not exist'.


    blip
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    (Original post by blip)
    very interesting!
    the physics theories about how the universe came into existence that you spoke about by no means deny Gods existence. whether our universe is the only one ever, or whether its just one in a string of many is not the point. the universe(s) had to have a beginning at some stage.

    i agree with you when you say that some religions portray god in a manner that suits their purposes and goals. again, just because they fashion God to have a particular character, it doesn't mean that that is God's real nature. there is a lot of things that i cannot find myself agreeing with in some religons. its also fascinating to read that you 'cannot dismiss that some sort of higher power does not exist'.


    blip
    I totally agree with everything you say. The only reason I said myself that the existence of a higher power cannot be dismissed is because there are so many things we will never ever understand and perhaps that could be the answer. But I do disagree with the textual brainwashing brought about by the religious scripts, as I feel if a higher power did exists he would not be of the nature described in any of these religious texts.

    And anyway, in some ways science is almost becoming like a religion these days.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    The fact we can think, breathe and exist. Science has no way of explaining what makes things alive.
    Err, what science are you talking about?
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    The only reason I said myself that the existence of a higher power cannot be dismissed is because there are so many things we will never ever understand and perhaps that could be the answer,
    This just isn't true; it angers me that people make such ridiculous statements.
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    (Original post by Speedbird2008)
    This just isn't true; it angers me that people make such ridiculous statements.
    Angers you? Have you read previous posts to see where I'm coming from?

    I'm afraid you've just made a total blanket statement, without any reasons, could you ellucidate your opinion. And perhaps we can this continue debate from there.
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    y'know...im almost beginning to think that this thread isnt going to find a solution to this question after all...
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    (Original post by n1r4v)
    I'm not going to speak on behalf of him, but I was just wondering, why is it that if we do not understand something, it implies the existence of a higher power?
    I never even said that it implies the existence of a higher power. I said that I personally believe that. I believe there must be some sort of higher power because there's always going to be unaswerable questions... limits do exist on what we, as human beings, can know. And usually a discovery brings up even more questions. I think lifes easier if you just get on with it and it is my personal belief that there is some higher power (this could be to do with my fear of death).
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    (Original post by Erebus)
    I never even said that it implies the existence of a higher power. I said that I personally believe that. I believe there must be some sort of higher power because there's always going to be unaswerable questions... limits do exist on what we, as human beings, can know. And usually a discovery brings up even more questions. I think lifes easier if you just get on with it and it is my personal belief that there is some higher power (this could be to do with my fear of death).
    I do agree with you, it does seem to me that humans don't have the mental capacity to understand all of the universe's secrets. But so what? This doesn't mean that perfectly natural answers don't exist. Chimps don't know about evolution, but it is still true.
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    (Original post by ningasheep12345)
    I do agree with you, it does seem to me that humans don't have the mental capacity to understand all of the universe's secrets. But so what? This doesn't mean that perfectly natural answers don't exist. Chimps don't know about evolution, but it is still true.
    Corrent. I'm just saying that's my personal belief, and I'm afraid nothing will change it. I understand were you are coming from though definately, and I am well grounded in the sciences. I just can't help the way I feel!
Updated: August 21, 2012
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