Prestigious Universities which are not in UK/US
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ENS, Polytechnique, ETH-Z, EPFL, CMI (Chennai), IITs, LMU and loads of other good universities in Europe.
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
Original post by Lilium
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
Not true. It is the most competitive market for graduate jobs in history at the moment, any edge you can get is worth having... In some situations, for some employers, in some fields; a name could be that edge.
Original post by RaisinPilot
Auckland is a TERRIBLE university...
Original post by cabso1
Ditto that.
oh, so you guys studied there?
Original post by Valour
It seems that most of the prestigious universities are in US / UK. Are there any which are not in either one?
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2010?page=0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0
Original post by Ishamo
Not true. It is the most competitive market for graduate jobs in history at the moment, any edge you can get is worth having... In some situations, for some employers, in some fields; a name could be that edge.
You don't need prestige to get a job.
My comment was more related to how it doesn't matter much as far as learning is concerned. You can find a good/bad curriculum taught by good/bad lecturers anywhere.
Original post by Lilium
You don't need prestige to get a job.
My comment was more related to how it doesn't matter much as far as learning is concerned. You can find a good/bad curriculum taught by good/bad lecturers anywhere.
My comment was more related to how it doesn't matter much as far as learning is concerned. You can find a good/bad curriculum taught by good/bad lecturers anywhere.
Nor did I ever say you did? Don't put words into my mouth.
Yes, obviously you can... but the whole point is that "prestigious" or "top" unis TEND to have better teaching/facilities hence why they get that accolade the first place. It's really not that hard a concept.
Original post by Ishamo
Nor did I ever say you did? Don't put words into my mouth.
Yes, obviously you can... but the whole point is that "prestigious" or "top" unis TEND to have better teaching/facilities hence why they get that accolade the first place. It's really not that hard a concept.
Yes, obviously you can... but the whole point is that "prestigious" or "top" unis TEND to have better teaching/facilities hence why they get that accolade the first place. It's really not that hard a concept.
Nope.
What people call "prestige" comes from rankings, which a large component of, is research output. At the undergraduate level, for most disciplines at least, this matters very little. Teaching quality can't be objectively measured, which renders your argument moot. One man's meat, another's poison and what have you. "Student satisfaction" is another rubbish criteria.
In the case of research, it's usually "number of papers published by all departments" and "number of citations" and this matters the most to the PhD applicant and even then, it's not the research reputation of the whole university that matters but that of a specific, usually quite small, research group, within a specific department. A good example I like to use is that for supernovae research where working at the University of Hawaii is a better idea than working at Harvard. Rankings don't tell you that nor can they tell you that. It's people in the field who can. It's by actually reading papers being published in the field that tells you that.
Rankings (and consequently, prestige), can however be of use. Certain companies only recruit from a specific pool of universities, generally the higher ranked ones. In the US, McKinsey tends to higher graduates from Ivy Leagues and a few other top private liberal arts colleges. If one desperately wants to work for a company like McKinsey, then attempting to attend a "target school" is a good idea. What also makes rankings relevant is they do a fairly good job at separating schools into "tiers", say top 10, 20 or 50. In my books, there isn't much to lose by attending the #7 university over the one ranked #4. Or the the one ranked #49 over the one ranked #42.
And as far as the major European (not much difference in attending the Universite de Toulouse or that of Strasbourg) and American (or UC Berkeley and Stanford) universities are concerned, one will probably get a good education, regardless of where they go. It's only when one ventures into countries like Malaysia or China, where not attending a renowned school could be a bad idea. The amount of "private universities" (the kind who take your money in exchange for a piece of paper which says Bachelor of Arts/Science and that alone) popping up there are quite alarming and as it turns out, many of those are/can be scams.
The bottom line is: in general, prestige is not very useful.
McGill, Toronto, University of Western Australia, Sorbonne, American University of Paris, University of Sydney, Leiden University, Australian National University, University of Hong Kong ...
Original post by issyconnor
McGill, Toronto, University of Western Australia, Sorbonne, American University of Paris, University of Sydney, Leiden University, Australian National University, University of Hong Kong ...
American University of Paris?
Why do you say that? In Paris it has the reputation of being a place for rich American kids. (Not wanting to sound mean I am just interested)
Original post by Lilium
Nope.
What people call "prestige" comes from rankings, which a large component of, is research output. At the undergraduate level, for most disciplines at least, this matters very little. Teaching quality can't be objectively measured, which renders your argument moot. One man's meat, another's poison and what have you. "Student satisfaction" is another rubbish criteria.
In the case of research, it's usually "number of papers published by all departments" and "number of citations" and this matters the most to the PhD applicant and even then, it's not the research reputation of the whole university that matters but that of a specific, usually quite small, research group, within a specific department. A good example I like to use is that for supernovae research where working at the University of Hawaii is a better idea than working at Harvard. Rankings don't tell you that nor can they tell you that. It's people in the field who can. It's by actually reading papers being published in the field that tells you that.
Rankings (and consequently, prestige), can however be of use. Certain companies only recruit from a specific pool of universities, generally the higher ranked ones. In the US, McKinsey tends to higher graduates from Ivy Leagues and a few other top private liberal arts colleges. If one desperately wants to work for a company like McKinsey, then attempting to attend a "target school" is a good idea. What also makes rankings relevant is they do a fairly good job at separating schools into "tiers", say top 10, 20 or 50. In my books, there isn't much to lose by attending the #7 university over the one ranked #4. Or the the one ranked #49 over the one ranked #42.
And as far as the major European (not much difference in attending the Universite de Toulouse or that of Strasbourg) and American (or UC Berkeley and Stanford) universities are concerned, one will probably get a good education, regardless of where they go. It's only when one ventures into countries like Malaysia or China, where not attending a renowned school could be a bad idea. The amount of "private universities" (the kind who take your money in exchange for a piece of paper which says Bachelor of Arts/Science and that alone) popping up there are quite alarming and as it turns out, many of those are/can be scams.
The bottom line is: in general, prestige is not very useful.
What people call "prestige" comes from rankings, which a large component of, is research output. At the undergraduate level, for most disciplines at least, this matters very little. Teaching quality can't be objectively measured, which renders your argument moot. One man's meat, another's poison and what have you. "Student satisfaction" is another rubbish criteria.
In the case of research, it's usually "number of papers published by all departments" and "number of citations" and this matters the most to the PhD applicant and even then, it's not the research reputation of the whole university that matters but that of a specific, usually quite small, research group, within a specific department. A good example I like to use is that for supernovae research where working at the University of Hawaii is a better idea than working at Harvard. Rankings don't tell you that nor can they tell you that. It's people in the field who can. It's by actually reading papers being published in the field that tells you that.
Rankings (and consequently, prestige), can however be of use. Certain companies only recruit from a specific pool of universities, generally the higher ranked ones. In the US, McKinsey tends to higher graduates from Ivy Leagues and a few other top private liberal arts colleges. If one desperately wants to work for a company like McKinsey, then attempting to attend a "target school" is a good idea. What also makes rankings relevant is they do a fairly good job at separating schools into "tiers", say top 10, 20 or 50. In my books, there isn't much to lose by attending the #7 university over the one ranked #4. Or the the one ranked #49 over the one ranked #42.
And as far as the major European (not much difference in attending the Universite de Toulouse or that of Strasbourg) and American (or UC Berkeley and Stanford) universities are concerned, one will probably get a good education, regardless of where they go. It's only when one ventures into countries like Malaysia or China, where not attending a renowned school could be a bad idea. The amount of "private universities" (the kind who take your money in exchange for a piece of paper which says Bachelor of Arts/Science and that alone) popping up there are quite alarming and as it turns out, many of those are/can be scams.
The bottom line is: in general, prestige is not very useful.
So if you want a really top job you need to go to these 'prestigious' schools? Well that was entirely self defeating.
Original post by Ishamo
So if you want a really top job you need to go to these 'prestigious' schools?
Nope. It would mean you'd have less hoops to jump through.
I'll use the McKinsey example again. If you were to go their web page and look into the profiles of their employees, you'd find that most of them are from "prestigious schools". Being educated at such a school often comes with a few perks, like on-campus recruiting. If you miss that, having the words "Imperial College, London" (for example) under the education section of your CV, means HR (probably) won't bin it.
If one is not at a target school, then one will have to work harder (not necessarily on their degree, but more so on external things) and in their case, trying to work their way from the bottom would be a smarter move. Take a look at this person's profile. She didn't attend a top university for her bachelor's degree but she did attend one for her master's and she had a few years' worth of experience in the relevant industry.
I like to think of it (and a few other things...) as follows.
Hypothetical situation:
I'm about to get married and my wife (to be), along with her annoying friends and mother, are being absolute bitches. They want white roses at the reception and white roses alone. There's no other way. Now, I happen to really like her and I don't want to mess up. So, I go to a "rose-garden" and pick out as many white roses as necessary. There's so many of them that I get to choose which to pick. Now, I could have tried to find some white roses in elsewhere, say, in a sugar cane field and maybe, just maybe, I might have found one or two but trying to look for them there would have made my life even more hellish.
Replace "me" with headhunters/HR, the wife and her friends with employers, the white roses with the specific kind of employee they're looking for. Got it? Yeah? Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool.
Well that was entirely self defeating.
For the record, it's okay to be wrong. I mention it because it's something you seem to have an issue with. I noticed you posted elsewhere after I had made this reply and you only came back a day or two after, with a very bland reply, whose sole purpose was to try have a dig at me. Good on you if attend a "prestigious school" but damn, you sound like a kid who lost his lollypop.
"If one is not at a target school, then one will have to work harder"
Therefore by your own admission (AGAIN) "prestige" isn't 100% worthless which you earlier claimed! I (nor anyone else) have ever claimed it is the be all and end all, or even that it is VERY important, but denying it's very existence and any worth what so ever is naive as you yourself have just explained.
For the record, surprisingly I don't check back on this thread or site every second of the day... I do apologise for the delay in my reply and the anguish it caused you.
Oh, and worst analogy ever.
Therefore by your own admission (AGAIN) "prestige" isn't 100% worthless which you earlier claimed! I (nor anyone else) have ever claimed it is the be all and end all, or even that it is VERY important, but denying it's very existence and any worth what so ever is naive as you yourself have just explained.
For the record, surprisingly I don't check back on this thread or site every second of the day... I do apologise for the delay in my reply and the anguish it caused you.
Oh, and worst analogy ever.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Lilium
Good on you if attend a "prestigious school" but damn, you sound like a kid who lost his lollypop.
I don't.
Original post by Ishamo
"If one is not at a target school, then one will have to work harder"
Therefore by your own admission (AGAIN) "prestige" isn't 100% worthless which you earlier claimed!
Therefore by your own admission (AGAIN) "prestige" isn't 100% worthless which you earlier claimed!
Nope, I didn't. We went through that already, a few posts earlier.
"My comment was more related to how it doesn't matter much as far as learning is concerned. You can find a good/bad curriculum taught by good/bad lecturers anywhere. "
Besides, you're missing the point of the previous post. It wasn't to illustrate the "absence of prestige" or in the event it is present, "it's lack of worth". Its purpose is to show how prestige is given unwarranted importance. People tend to have this silly notion that if they don't go to X school, they will never be successful (whatever that may mean to them; anything ranging from $$$ to getting that post-doc which will eventually lead to tenure in any Ivy League university) and that kind of belief can really mess people up. One's ability to show relevant skills are the real deal makers, not which school they go to.
A post which was not necessarily aimed at you or anyone in particular. However, it's still a post which ended up being posted because of your response to my initial post. Hope this clears things out.
Say, one wants to attend graduate school (for a PhD) to work with a very specific research group. As it turns out, everybody interested in the field wants to work with that research group. Now, one is faced with the problem of cut throat competition and having a 4.0 GPA won't be enough for one to even be considered. So, how does one make them noticeable? How do they prove they're cut out for that position? Sure, being from Columbia might help, in that the department they're applying to might actually know the guy who's writing out the applicant's recommendation letter. Maybe he's (the prof) is brilliant in his field. Does this mean the guy who went to Tomboctou State U is screwed? Most would think so. But if that guy went out of his way to get a few different summer research positions, with some being in that field and they also managed to publish a paper in some journal or another, then that guy has a very solid chance of getting in. No one will really care where Tomboctou State is or what its reputation is, if the applicant does something similar. As I said, one would have to work harder but it's not impossible.
That's one example of of one specific case (grad school for science, in general) where somebody from a no-name university could have a very realistic chance of getting into a top program. Where "top" doesn't necessarily mean "prestigious". Here, it could be the University of Hawaii.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Valour
It seems that most of the prestigious universities are in US / UK. Are there any which are not in either one?
Trinity College Dublin, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, University College Dublin, University of Tokyo, University of Kyoto, Waseda University, Keio University, Leiden University, University of Paris/Sorbonne, McGill, University of Toronto, University of Hong Kong, Australian National University, University of Auckland, Padua, Coimbra, Salamanca, Bologna......................
Original post by Valour
It seems that most of the prestigious universities are in US / UK. Are there any which are not in either one?
There are lots of very highly prestigious universities that are not in the US or the UK, too many to mention, but here are a few: Bocconi (Italy), Ecole Polytechinque (France), Stockholm School of Economics (Sweden), Erasmus (Netherlands), EHT Zurich (Switzerland), University of Toronto (Canada), McGill (Canada), Hong Kong University (HK)...the list goes on.
Original post by Lilium
Nope, I didn't. We went through that already, a few posts earlier.
Original post by Lilium
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
Also, **** prestige. Prestige doesn't mean ****.
It appears we have some conflicting evidence here.
Original post by Ishamo
It appears we have some conflicting evidence here.
Here you go:
My comment was more related to how it doesn't matter much as far as learning is concerned. You can find a good/bad curriculum taught by good/bad lecturers anywhere.
I've made my point. I couldn't be bothered to continue this discussion, or what's left of this, with you. Here, have a cookie.
Original post by Valour
Original post by Valour
It seems that most of the prestigious universities are in US / UK. Are there any which are not in either one?
National University of Singapore is the most prestigious university in Asia. It is called the MIT of ASia and to enter any program in NUS since 1-2 years u need like 40 above in IB or A*A*A in A levels their requirement for Indian board is 95% above and the career prospects are excellent. According to quality of education however I would vote IIT in India as the best in Asia. IIT is more competitive then MIT it's not that I saying about this coz I am an Indian. I am Indonesian however I know about IIT. IIT us valued highly in USA, employers give equal consideration to a graduate of MIT, caltech and IIT. IIT us unfortunately not for International Students only Indian students can enter. Their international ranking is low because they dont spend money on research and development but education is excellence..
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