Has Israel forfeited its right to exist?

Socrates

Foreign language posts without a translation are against the rules :smile:

I thought it was fine as long as I didn't use hebrew letters? I'll edit it away.

Reply 41

blip

UniOfLife

Because Arabs lived there for a long time and then a whole load of Jews turned up and then it was decided to make a state for Jews there and the Arabs didn't get one for themselves and they ain't happy.

i was hoping for a more ... detailed explanation. :s-smilie:

thank u nevertheless

Reply 42

Folderol

2

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.' Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement. There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.”

- Abba Eban

Reply 43

sulpicia

PeeWeeDan

No one ever is in war. This is just the start Soc, I should think we will see a ground invasion soon. You know people did not pay this much attention to the Iran Iraq war, they would care far less had Lebanon killed 200 Palestinians, and wouldn't have flinched at Jordan massacring 200, but when Israel surgically strikes Hamas strongholds killing 250 people... approximately 235 of which were Hamas terrorists and it's evil.

I am proud of the fact that Israeli Arabs are more free in Israel than they are in any other Arab state. I am not a Zionist or Jew, but am proud of the fact that Israel has maintained a largely democratic state with freedom of religion in a vast sea of other states that do not.

I am proud of the fact that Arabs are well represented in the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli Supreme Court.

Reply 44

Socrates

17

You don't need to repeat yourself.

Reply 45

wiio

7

funniest poll result ever.

Reply 46

sulpicia

I am proud of the fact that Israeli Arabs are more free in Israel than they are in any other Arab state. I am not a Zionist or Jew, but am proud of the fact that Israel has maintained a largely democratic state with freedom of religion in a vast sea of other states that do not.

I am proud of the fact that Arabs are well represented in the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli Supreme Court.

Large amounts of Israeli Arabs vote for HaLikud, the right wing party largely unassociated with negotiations with the Palestinians. Do you know why? Because they prefer life as Israelis, they don't want a Palestinian state.

Reply 47

Klinsmannic

11

PeeWeeDan

Originally written by Folderol:

"1. Number of innocents killed

210/225 were Hamas Security Forces:

"More than 400 people were also wounded. Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/...y4PukA Cs0NUE

"Most of those killed were policemen in the Hamas militant movement, which controls Gaza, but women and children also died, Gaza officials said."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7801662.stm

"Most of the casualties were Hamas operatives."

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html

etc

etc

The only links that work are from Haaretz...

Reply 48

Rite

UniOfLife

Because Arabs lived there for a long time and then a whole load of Jews turned up and then it was decided to make a state for Jews there and the Arabs didn't get one for themselves and they ain't happy.

Well, the Jews came to then-Palestine (was a region split up into several neighbouring countries, not a sovereign state, and under British rule anyway) and decided to turn their historical homeland into their own country. But they came from Europe and displaced approx 200000 of the Palestinians living there in order to get a majority-Jewish Jewish nation. That's why the Palestinians are unhappy.

Reply 49

46664

Israel has gone too far. However, there right to exist is unquestionable.

Reply 50

UniOfLife

blip

i was hoping for a more ... detailed explanation. :s-smilie:

thank u nevertheless

Sorry, that could takes a very long time indeed. Try wikipedia?

Reply 51

Klinsmannic

The only links that work are from Haaretz...

They have probably been updated as more casualties have been recorded. I'll find better ones tomorrow. But suffice it to say that I think we are all relatively sure that the majority of the casualties were Hamas... I find that quite amazing given the population density of Gaza.

Reply 52

UniOfLife

Rite

Well, the Jews came to then-Palestine (was a region split up into several neighbouring countries, not a sovereign state, and under British rule anyway) and decided to turn their historical homeland into their own country. But they came from Europe and displaced approx 200000 of the Palestinians living there in order to get a majority-Jewish Jewish nation. That's why the Palestinians are unhappy.

Source please?

Reply 53

blip

will anyone answer my q?? in some detail?

yep, i'll try ye old wiki

Reply 54

Neville 'Facking' Bartos

The map of the Middle East needs to be re-drawn.

Reply 55

UniOfLife

Neville 'Facking' Bartos

The map of the Middle East needs to be re-drawn.

This map?

Reply 56

Folderol

2

It's becaust TSR shorten links, here you go:

1. Number of innocents killed

210/225 were Hamas Security Forces:

"More than 400 people were also wounded. Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=AgRtWYge.Ke1ZeNPy4PukACs0NUE

"Most of those killed were policemen in the Hamas militant movement, which controls Gaza, but women and children also died, Gaza officials said."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7801662.stm

"Most of the casualties were Hamas operatives."

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html

2. Legitimate targets and accuaracy:

Israel targeted 40 - 50 sites, that would mean killing 4 - 6 people per building, incredibly accurate and very good record for war time.

"Hamas said all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed by the air strikes, which Israel said hit some 40 targets"

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7801662.stm

"The first wave of air strikes was launched by 60 warplanes, which hit a total of 50 targets in one fell swoop. The IAF deployed approximately 100 bombs, with an estimated 95 percent reaching their intended targets."

"..some 20 IAF aircraft struck 50 Palestinian rocket launchers in an effort to minimize Hamas' retaliatory strikes."

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html

"Military officials said aircraft released more than 100 tons of bombs in the first nine hours of fighting, focusing initially on militant training camps, rocket-manufacturing facilities and weapons warehouses that had been identified in advance."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=AgRtWYge.Ke1ZeNPy4PukACs0NUE

"Barak said the IDF and IAF attacks had destroyed "terrorism infrastructure" and hit more than 150 Hamas targets"

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050410.html

3. Proportionate response?

After not renewing the truce, Hamas fired 50 rockets into Israeli civilian towns where NO military bases are. Ministers of Hamas vow to fire more and urge Israel for a full-on war. This is all before the strikes today by the way. Israel then warns Gaza to stop. Then the PM says that civilians should not allow Hamas to get away with it. They persist and persist. Now, how would any Western Nation act? 9/11 is a good example, the bombing of the US embassy is an example - in both of these, America attacked Sudan and Afghanistan. They are going to keep on firing these rockets - how are you going to stop them? You can't.

"Some 50 rockets have been launched from Gaza in recent days"

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7799593.stm

The fact that only 1 Israeli has died doesn't make this any different. People in Sderot have been living in bomb shelters since the end of cease-fire. Should Israel be penalised for protecting it's civilians? No.

4. The blockade (not directly linked to all of this)

The blockade allowed has always allowed for emergency Humanitarian aid to go in (you would have noticed Israel opening it every so often). Why is there a blockade? Because it's an illegitimate government - yes they were elected but that doesn't mean they can have effective control of all of Gaza - which is what they did in their coup. Just because Labour win the majority of seats, does that mean they remain legitimate after they have killed a bunch of Tories and taken control of London - even though Parliament and all who are in it should have effective control? You can answer that yourself. If the missile attacks didn't happen then Gaza would not be under seige.

An interesting read: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404771503&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Summary:
1. 15 innocents dead
2. Amazingly good accuracy
3. The amount of missiles that were fired, what did you expect? After the warnings etc

Reply 57

sulpicia

PeeWeeDan

They have probably been updated as more casualties have been recorded. I'll find better ones tomorrow. But suffice it to say that I think we are all relatively sure that the majority of the casualties were Hamas... I find that quite amazing given the population density of Gaza.

I accept that the bombing of Gaza is not a situation that the Israelis have taken lightly. However, any state under fire, losing its citizens should have the right to respond to end that threat. The simple reality is that if Israel was no longer a Jewish majority state, the safety and security of its residents could not be guaranteed. Hamas has clearly set out the destruction of the State of Israel and the removal of Jews from the territory as one of its political objectives.

Reply 58