Has Israel forfeited its right to exist?

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Reply 80

shmex

Poor Jews. Always being picked on. Always the victim :rolleyes:

Reply 81

Dirac Delta Function

CHAMON

This attack will only make Hamas more angry and persistent in killing more Israelis. This will solve nothing. Thousands in Egypt, Syria, Yeman, Iran, Lebanon have protested against this. This make Israel seem heartless. YES the rockets should stop by Hamas.

Also think as it's that dick-wad Dubyas last month, Israel are making the most of It. They know Obama is not against Palestinians as dubya :santa2:

and co were.

I feel sorry for BOTH the Israelis and Palis that suffer and will suffer in the coming days.

I'd contend that. I don't think Obama is any less a zionist than bush, and infact is more dangerous than McCain would have been.

I think the Israelis will start to realise the depravity of this operation soon, but they've dug themselves into a deep hole and there is no way out of it now.

^ Lol

Folderol

I wrote that yesterday to address the issue of majority being innocents which is what many people believe - I even believed it until I looked into it.

Your friend should have informed everyone of the context of your post when pasting it. That said, my point about you dressing it up still stands. Not a swipe at you, both sides do it. At this point in time, nobody really has enough knowledge tbh. I highly doubt many people believed that mainly civilians were killed: almost immediately it was made clear to us by news organizations and IDF information about targets etc.

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As a general point, the fact that civilian casualties are seen as collateral damage is saddening.

Reply 84

CHAMON

Dirac Delta Function

I'd contend that. I don't think Obama is any less a zionist than bush, and infact is more dangerous than McCain would have been.

.

He's very lenient. Nothing like the oaf bush. He made that much clear in his campaign.

Reply 85

Dirac Delta Function

CHAMON

He's very lenient. Nothing like the oaf bush. He made that much clear in his campaign.

That's very naive. He's a deceiver and a false hope. What he says in an election campaign is as good as worthless.

Reply 86

Folderol

Klinsmannic

I agree, but we can assess the situation on what we know and than react appropriately when new information is given.

Reply 87

Little Joe

UniOfLife

I'd just like to pick up on the two points in bold.

On the first point I would ask you to consider the people involved. What is most important to them? Is it revenge or life and peace? If revenge is the most important then yes, the fighting will continue. But I imagine the hope from the Israelis is that at some point the ordinary Palestinians will realise that fighting will not get them anywhere and that what they need to do is demand that their government (ie Hamas) stops provoking Israeli attacks and instead resolves itself to the existence of Israel as a permanent neighbour and works towards peace. This is the situation currently in the West Bank where Abbas is quietly going about laying the foundations for a democratic, law-abiding and peaceful state. And in response there support from Israel.

I imagine life and peace is more valuable to them, but revenge is very satisfying too, especially when your innocent mother/daughter/son/brother etc has just been killed by an Israeli airstrike. It's all well laying it out as such an easy choice: Peace or Revenge/War, but the choice is never that easy, especially when your whole nation is threatened with invasion for reasons you may not even fully understand.

I imagine the Israelis do hope for an end to conflict, but they're going about it in the wrong way. This isn't a conflict between two standing armies, two nationstates with clear lines on the map, this is asymmetrical warfare, and as the British and Americans have (sort of) learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan, people like you a lot more when you're not bombing their homes. As in Iraq and Afghanistan, it'll take longer, it may cost more lives, but performing airstrikes like this will only hurt Israel, it's reputation and lengthen the time it will take to deliver any form of peace.

One side is going to have to 'back down' first, in my view it's far more likely for Israel to do so, they have a greater democratic freedom, more land and they suffer far less harshly to Hamas' attacks than Hamas or Palestine do when Israel strikes back, as has been evidenced by the past few days.

UniOfLife

On the second you assume that Hamas has to respond. This kind of ties in to the first point. Hamas do not need to respond to attacks. They do not need to fight Israel at all. They have no need to fire rockets at Israel. None of these things will help Hamas at all. I think that the sooner Hamas realise this the better. I'm sure this sounds like I'm putting the onus on Hamas but I really believe that they hold the key here.

In reality there is nothing Israel can do. If it stops firing and the rockets continue it will be forced to act at some point. If it takes action then it isn't helping. However, if Hamas stop firing then Israel will never need respond and the embargo can be lifted and Hamas can get on with governing Gaza and making it into a viable state. As things stand, though, Hamas are committed to fighting a war they can never win and this will do nothing but bring more death to Gaza.

And I've sort of answered this with my first response. I doubt the majority of Palestinians are as anti Israel/anti Zionist as Hamas are, but Hamas do appear to be the best 'wartime' government to deal with the threat of the perceived Israeli aggression, in return Hamas gets to transform anti-Israeli feeling into anti-Zionist and anti Jewish feeling, which is far more pervasive, long lasting and damaging.

Israel can do a lot more to end this, with all the support it has from the West and the relative abundance of resources it has in comparison to Palestine.

Reply 88

CHAMON

Dirac Delta Function

That's very naive. He's a deceiver and a false hope. What he says in an election campaign is as good as worthless.

Not naivety. Call It benefit of the doubt. Obama will surprise many.

Reply 89

Little Joe

shmex

Poor Jews. Always being picked on. Always the victim :rolleyes:

Excellent post. Well done.

Would you say the same about 'blacks' in relation to Mugabe and his chronies in Zimbabwe?

Reply 90

stallion007

I dont understand this right. Isreal occupies a once peaceful land in the Middle east Called palestine. It kills millions of palestians backed by britain and allied countries. The rest of the Arab countries do little to ditter them . There to strong with Britian and America and other european forces. Isreal kills children,women,old men,parents,orphans etc. And till now isreal is still killing innocent people. Isreal has said that the Military action against gaza is to stop Hamas attacks,but till now only 5 Isrealis have died in hamas Rocket attacks. And while 280 people dead in air strikes and hundreds injured no one in the world is doing action against them.

just imagine someone coming into your land killing your parents,brothers,sisters friends and cousins because they claim its there land.And they are still killing innoccent people. When are people going to undrestand that it may not affect them personally but affects others dramatically and we should all stop this insanity from happenening and reclaim the land of palestine and let the jews go back to there own western countries such as poland,russia,eastern european countries,America,Britian and all the world problems wil go . They seem to back trouble around the world.

Sure it does.

Please, for the love of everything that is sacred, learn how to spell, how to form sentences, the difference between they're and there, til and till and other basic things. You also seem to have a terrible understanding of history.

Reply 93

dramaminedreams

I don't get the question. Who exactly gives out these 'rights' to exist. And if Israel doesn't have them, do we?

Reply 94

modini

I thought there was already a thread on this

Reply 95

shmex

Little Joe

Excellent post. Well done.

Would you say the same about 'blacks' in relation to Mugabe and his chronies in Zimbabwe?

Thanks and no

Reply 96

invictus_veritas

if you believe in the Christian God then God promised Israel to the Israelis therefore it should belong to them.

If you believe in the Jewish God then the same.

If you believe in the Islamic God then Israel belongs to Muslims.

If you don't believe in God then you'll have a different opinion altogether which is possibly more objective.

Ultimately it depends on which god you believe in whether Israel has a right to exist and that's why there's such a huge issue: Muslims believe it doesn't and Jews/Christians believe it does. There is not much scope for agreement when your scriptures state that God gave your people the land to live on.

I personally have no idea whether Israel has a right to exist: I think they should just allow everyone in the territories a democratic vote: Jews and Palestinians and try and sort the country out that way...

Reply 97

Snookercraze

For a country that only came into existence due to the end of Nazi Germnay, Israel are doing FAR too much.

As I said yesterday, they are the biggest threat to world peace.

It aint gonna happen, but its time Britain takes a stance against them. And I only see David Miliband doing that.