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Reply 40
No this is simply not true.

I dont think USA was particularly invading anyone when 9/11 happened?
~|Shock|~
No this is simply not true.

I dont think USA was particularly invading anyone when 9/11 happened?

Well, yes, it was. The US has a very involved path with the Muslim world. One of the major reasons al Qaeda gave for carrying out 9/11 was the American military bases on Saudi soil (in other words, in the Islamic holy land). Look at stuff like the support for the Shah of Iran for more examples of US intervention in that area. It was doing a hell of a lot to make the Islamic world hate it long before September 2001.
numb3rb0y
Well, yes, it was. The US has a very involved path with the Muslim world. One of the major reasons al Qaeda gave for carrying out 9/11 was the American military bases on Saudi soil (in other words, in the Islamic holy land). Look at stuff like the support for the Shah of Iran for more examples of US intervention in that area. It was doing a hell of a lot to make the Islamic world hate it long before September 2001.


Agreed 100%

But what can be done to stop the terrorists?? Even if America withdraws from all its interests in the Middle East, terrorism will still exist because its some sort of ideology now. :eek:

As for terrorism in the UK, the Muslim community can do a lot in this instance.
Reply 43
numb3rb0y
Well, yes, it was. The US has a very involved path with the Muslim world. One of the major reasons al Qaeda gave for carrying out 9/11 was the American military bases on Saudi soil (in other words, in the Islamic holy land). Look at stuff like the support for the Shah of Iran for more examples of US intervention in that area. It was doing a hell of a lot to make the Islamic world hate it long before September 2001.



So as with Hamas, these terrorist only problem (as proven by you) is that not every single inch of land stretching from Morocco to Indonesia is muslim. The fact that the US has (legal and accepted) bases in saudi is the reason why al qaeda hate america.

The only places that citizens can have any sort of normal life is in america compounds. My Saudi friends ALL live in america compounds because outside they are not allowed to uncover their heads, they are not allowed to drive and they are not allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied or talk to men. THAT is what al qaeda have a problem with, that my friends (and the rest of them) are not submitting to Shar'iah law on 'muslim soil'.
danielf90
So as with Hamas, these terrorist only problem (as proven by you) is that not every single inch of land stretching from Morocco to Indonesia is muslim. The fact that the US has (legal and accepted) bases in saudi is the reason why al qaeda hate america.

The only places that citizens can have any sort of normal life is in america compounds. My Saudi friends ALL live in america compounds because outside they are not allowed to uncover their heads, they are not allowed to drive and they are not allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied or talk to men. THAT is what al qaeda have a problem with, that my friends (and the rest of them) are not submitting to Shar'iah law on 'muslim soil'.

Firstly, I have to note that whether American intervention is moral is irrelevant to whether it has created anti-American feeling.

Now, with that out of the way, if the US really wanted to spread freedom, I might suggest that it stop giving billions of dollars every year to the brutal, authoritarian, fundamentalist Wahhabist regime that controls Saudi Arabia. The US is paying top taxpayer dollar for people not to be allowed to leave their heads uncovered; for underage girls to be stoned for talking to men in public; for non-Muslims who worshipped openly to be whipped into submission. Maybe if the US stopped rewarding such vast evil with masses of money, the freedom you speak of wouldn't be restricted to US-administrated military compounds, and maybe those compounds wouldn't need to exist at all.
Reply 45
numb3rb0y
Firstly, I have to note that whether American intervention is moral is irrelevant to whether it has created anti-American feeling.

Now, with that out of the way, if the US really wanted to spread freedom, I might suggest that it stop giving billions of dollars every year to the brutal, authoritarian, fundamentalist Wahhabist regime that controls Saudi Arabia. The US is paying top taxpayer dollar for people not to be allowed to leave their heads uncovered; for underage girls to be stoned for talking to men in public; for non-Muslims who worshipped openly to be whipped into submission. Maybe if the US stopped rewarding such vast evil with masses of money, the freedom you speak of wouldn't be restricted to US-administrated military compounds, and maybe those compounds wouldn't need to exist at all.


"Were foreign policy to blame, we would be seeing terrorists from countries most screwed over by American interventionism, like Latin America or Vietnam.

That this has not happened speaks to cultural differences between the mid-east and the others. Latin Americans have not created a culture, encompassing schools, media, church, and government, that demonizes and calls inferior all that is not like itself. Nor do Vietnamese monks or Nicaraguan bishops encourage their young men to bomb White Anglo Saxon Protestant train stations. It does little to say that ‘most Muslims’ are not fanatics when their societies are saturated with vile for the Other and they do nothing about it."


"Graffiti plastered all over Bradford (apparently) within the last few days demands ‘free Gaza or face riot 09′. There was also a small bunch of leftist/Islamic activists out in the city centre yesterday, one of whom carried a placard demanding that we boycott Tesco, Marks and Spencers and Burger King? because they ‘promote murder’. I presume the reason these companies were selected is because they are perceived as being ‘jewish’ . You have to wonder how could any democratic society seriously adapt it’s foreign policy to appease such witless goons?"
numb3rb0y
Firstly, I have to note that whether American intervention is moral is irrelevant to whether it has created anti-American feeling.

Now, with that out of the way, if the US really wanted to spread freedom, I might suggest that it stop giving billions of dollars every year to the brutal, authoritarian, fundamentalist Wahhabist regime that controls Saudi Arabia. The US is paying top taxpayer dollar for people not to be allowed to leave their heads uncovered; for underage girls to be stoned for talking to men in public; for non-Muslims who worshipped openly to be whipped into submission. Maybe if the US stopped rewarding such vast evil with masses of money, the freedom you speak of wouldn't be restricted to US-administrated military compounds, and maybe those compounds wouldn't need to exist at all.


Wtf

The US doesn't fund the Saudi government. I guess the reverse might happen.
accelerator
Wtf

The US doesn't fund the Saudi government. I guess the reverse might happen.

Um, yes it does. The US regularly gives military aid packages to a number of Middle Eastern nations, including Saudi Arabia. It also arranges arms deals to give the Saudi government the latest and best weapons to help oppress the Saudi people at significant discounts (all using US contractors, of course). How is that not funding the Saudi government?
numb3rb0y
Um, yes it does. The US regularly gives military aid packages to a number of Middle Eastern nations, including Saudi Arabia. It also arranges arms deals to give the Saudi government the latest and best weapons to help oppress the Saudi people at significant discounts (all using US contractors, of course). How is that not funding the Saudi government?


Well you're really talking of business. US companies will sell arms at a discount to any buyer who purchases in bulk and is reliable in terms of future contracts and payments. Given that the US govt bans arms sells to most "enemies", that's why Saudi is at an advantage. BTW, the Saudi govt is NOT brutal. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? I've lived there for a decade and it is very peaceful, no attacks or discrimination against women except not allowing women to drive. And I think beheading murderers is not a crime, is it? Please don't talk rubbish.
accelerator
Well you're really talking of business. US companies will sell arms at a discount to any buyer who purchases in bulk and is reliable in terms of future contracts and payments. Given that the US govt bans arms sells to most "enemies", that's why Saudi is at an advantage.

No, the US government subsidises these deals, and it's the one that spearheads them. The executive (the State Department or the Department of Defence) handles administration, and the legislature (Congress) has to okay most of it. It is by no means private initiative. The US thinks they're doing it tactically; by arming the biggest players in that theatre, they create a sort of cold war détente.

accelerator
BTW, the Saudi govt is NOT brutal. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? I've lived there for a decade and it is very peaceful, no attacks or discrimination against women except not allowing women to drive. And I think beheading murderers is not a crime, is it? Please don't talk rubbish.

Right, a government that bans free expression, legislates against freedom of the press, enforces a state religion with criminal penalties, jails political dissenters, has a huge incidence of police brutality, routinely practices torture, executes the underage, institutionalises gender segregation and discrimination in education, employment, the justice system, and general life, criminalises consensual homosexual and pre-marital sexual behaviour, and uses corporal punishment isn't brutal at all. It's practically heaven on Earth, amirite?
numb3rb0y
Right, a government that bans free expression, legislates against freedom of the press, enforces a state religion with criminal penalties, jails political dissenters, has a huge incidence of police brutality, routinely practices torture, executes the underage, institutionalises gender segregation and discrimination in education, employment, the justice system, and general life, criminalises consensual homosexual and pre-marital sexual behaviour, and uses corporal punishment isn't brutal at all. It's practically heaven on Earth, amirite?


And your source for all of these very strong accusations?

Listen, Saudi Arabia is NOT a moderate Islamic society. It's an orthodox one. And if drawing nude pictures of Prophet Mohammad (GOD FORBID) is 'freedom of expression', then Saudis don't want, need or ask for it. And, Saudis are very happy with their govt. True, it's a male dominated society. But no one, yes 95% of women included, have a problem with that. Why do you Americans bother?
accelerator
And your source for all of these very strong accusations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/saudi-arabia/page.do?id=1011230
http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/saudi-arabia

accelerator
Listen, Saudi Arabia is NOT a moderate Islamic society. It's an orthodox one.

I never said it wasn't, but just because the majority wants authoritarianism doesn't make it acceptable.

accelerator
And if drawing nude pictures of Prophet Mohammad (GOD FORBID) is 'freedom of expression', then Saudis don't want, need or ask for it.

Of course that's freedom of expression, and I can guarantee that you can't in fact say that every single person who ever has or ever will live under Saudi law wouldn't want to express it. However, when saying "King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud sucks" will also get you jailed, it's a little bit more than just that.

accelerator
And, Saudis are very happy with their govt.

Oh, so there's zero dissent? You can prove that every single Saudi is one hundred percent happy with their government and legal system? Cool.

accelerator
True, it's a male dominated society. But no one, yes 95% of women included, have a problem with that.

Wait, no, you can't. I guess we should just tell the 5% of women who don't like being treated as lesser human beings to stick it, eh?

accelerator
Why do you Americans bother?

Actually, I'm English, but I bother because I actually give a damn about the teenage girl who is stoned to death because she was raped.
numb3rb0y
Oh, so there's zero dissent? You can prove that every single Saudi is one hundred percent happy with their government and legal system? Cool.


Does a govt need 100% support from its people to remain in power? Then Mr Bush (possibly with only 30-40% support of the American public) should have opened his pants and ran away a long time ago. The same can be said about Blair.

Actually, I'm English, but I bother because I actually give a damn about the teenage girl who is stoned to death because she was raped.


Wasn't that in Somalia? And, if you're English, why the hell are you using a US flag?
accelerator
Does a govt need 100% support from its people to remain in power? Then Mr Bush (possibly with only 30-40% support of the American public) should have opened his pants and ran away a long time ago. The same can be said about Blair.

Nice segue. Whether the government is legitimate has nothing to do with my response to your point that apparently everyone in Saudi Arabia was cool with the brutal stuff that the Saudi autocracy does. As it happens, though, by modern standards, as it's not democratic, it's not legitimate, and by classical liberal standards, as it's totalitarian and tramples liberty regularly, it's not legitimate either.

accelerator
Wasn't that in Somalia? And, if you're English, why the hell are you using a US flag?

Saudi Arabia routinely executes the underage, and it routinely punishes, usually with corporal or capital methods, those who've been sexually assaulted. I'm using a US flag because I have no desire to be English and a great deal of desire to be American.


Just because you hate freedom doesn't give you the right to piss on everyone else's.
Reply 54
But can anyone say what you think that terrorist means????

:s-smilie:
accelerator
Well you're really talking of business. US companies will sell arms at a discount to any buyer who purchases in bulk and is reliable in terms of future contracts and payments. Given that the US govt bans arms sells to most "enemies", that's why Saudi is at an advantage. BTW, the Saudi govt is NOT brutal. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? I've lived there for a decade and it is very peaceful, no attacks or discrimination against women except not allowing women to drive. And I think beheading murderers is not a crime, is it? Please don't talk rubbish.

No discrimination against women in Saudi?

lol.

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