[Medicine Man]

(Original post by vas876)
6 Hours every 2 weeks, where there are 29 hours contact.

6/29 = ~20%

I wouldnt call 20% that much, in proportion would you?

I agree with you in that respect - 20% isn't much for you (or for me for that matter though we have a smaller %age here at BL) - but you're forgetting how much work you have to put in outside uni hours. Granted, my pbls last year were pretty much a last min copy and paste job from wiki the night before it was due in, but doing it the right way does take quite a bit of time tbh. And thats where I think Woody.'s argument is fair - he didn't knowingly sign up for a course where there's potentially an opportunity to increase the time allocated to pbl than there currently is. And thats fine tbh. I'm usually one to vouch for pbl because i think it develops useful skills/is interactive which I like etc, but its also ok not to like it.

Everyone thinks on a different wavelength - maybe he'd much rather prefer an even smaller %age than 20.

Anyway, I think we've digressed from the point of this thread for long enough now.

[Sambo2]

(Original post by vas876)
6 Hours every 2 weeks, where there are 29 hours contact.

6/29 = ~20%

I wouldnt call 20% that much, in proportion would you?

so you've got 8 hours lectures + 3 hours PBL.. where do your 29 hours come from?? can't be more than 8 hours of labs + maybe another 4 of clin skills - that's still missing 6 hours..?

[carcinoma]

(Original post by Sambo2)
so you've got 8 hours lectures + 3 hours PBL.. where do your 29 hours come from?? can't be more than 8 hours of labs + maybe another 4 of clin skills - that's still missing 6 hours..?

In a two week period:

9 Hours Lectures (Plenarys/Workshop) (as 1 is a 2 hour session)
6 Hours Life Science Small Group Teaching
6 Hours PBL
4 Hours Community Placement and feedback
4 Hours Clinical Skills

[Woody.]

(Original post by vas876)
There is not that much PBL in the Peninsula course its like 3 hours a week.

I would hardly call that much.

While yes at UCL the majority of the teaching is done in lectures, where the majority of the teaching at Peninsula is done in the Life Science and clinical skills small group sessions. But I would not say that Peninsula has particularly more PBL than any other university, the difference does lie in the fact that Peninsula only has 4 lectures a week, and more SDL is needed.

Medicine Man has kindly put my point across perfectly, and anyway, the argument is irrelevant. I signed up for the course at UCL, not Peninsula, and hence, I do not want my course to be morphed into the course at Peninsula. That's all there is to it, really.

[Ciaran88]

Tooke isn't going to be transforming the UCL course all in one go, but honestly, as the years go by you're going to be hard pressed to find a course without PBL or something like it: it is the momentum of medical education, it's what the GMC wants, it's gonna happen.

I am sure that UCL will maintain an much stronger emphasis on other areas of it's course even when it does introduce some kind of small group session, but Tooke is Mr PBL, he is Peninsula Medical School and he's not been hired at UCL to maintain the status quo - that's just not what this guy is about.

At the end of the day these differences between schools only really apply to the first 2 years, from then onwards you are pretty much a "student of the NHS" when it comes to teaching.

[Sambo2]

(Original post by Ciaran88)
Tooke isn't going to be transforming the UCL course all in one go, but honestly, as the years go by you're going to be hard pressed to find a course without PBL or something like it: it is the momentum of medical education, it's what the GMC wants, it's gonna happen.

I am sure that UCL will maintain an much stronger emphasis on other areas of it's course even when it does introduce some kind of small group session, but Tooke is Mr PBL, he is Peninsula Medical School and he's not been hired at UCL to maintain the status quo - that's just not what this guy is about.

At the end of the day these differences between schools only really apply to the first 2 years, from then onwards you are pretty much a "student of the NHS" when it comes to teaching.

though it's interesting to note that Manchester, the pioneers of PBL are largely dropping it from what I hear.. things will go full circle I reckon

[bean87]

(Original post by Sambo2)
though it's interesting to note that Manchester, the pioneers of PBL are largely dropping it from what I hear.. things will go full circle I reckon

really? im at manchester. thats news to me. looking forward to my PBL case next week

[Ciaran88]

(Original post by Sambo2)
though it's interesting to note that Manchester, the pioneers of PBL are largely dropping it from what I hear.. things will go full circle I reckon

Citation needed :P but either way PBL is just one flavour of small group learning, which is basically what the GMC and Tooke want, PBL may change or be replaced over the years but the impetus is small groups - like it or not really. Myself I am fairly indifferent.

[CWallace91]

(Original post by bean87)
really? im at manchester. thats news to me. looking forward to my PBL case next week

Does this mean I don't have to turn up to my PBL session on Tuesday? Ha.

Massive misunderstanding from some people about what Manchester are doing. Yes, the course is changing, but in small ways which doesn't involve any less PBL. The things that are changing are the extra bits that go around and support the PBL learning.

[Ciaran88]

(Original post by CWallace91)
Does this mean I don't have to turn up to my PBL session on Tuesday? Ha.

Massive misunderstanding from some people about what Manchester are doing. Yes, the course is changing, but in small ways which doesn't involve any less PBL. The things that are changing are the extra bits that go around and support the PBL learning.

Yeah similar stuff happening here at Peninsula for the pre-clinicals.

[Gizmo!]

pbl is the future, why would lecturers want to slow down the development of their medics by going back to lecture heavy formats?

We need to get ahead, or we are going to be severely embarrassed by our Peninsula counterparts sheer ultracompetence in the near future.

[Daveo]

Pbl is ****

[Kanonoji]

(Original post by vas876)
In a two week period:

9 Hours Lectures (Plenarys/Workshop) (as 1 is a 2 hour session)
6 Hours Life Science Small Group Teaching
6 Hours PBL
4 Hours Community Placement and feedback
4 Hours Clinical Skills

Finally got me some internetz

[CWallace91]

(Original post by Daveo)
Pbl is ****

I'd love to know what exactly about Manchester you hate so much? Since being here I've not met anyone who really dislikes it.

And as for the above quote, maybe its not for you, but I for one know that for me personally sitting in a lecture theatre with someone talking at me for an hour isn't the way I learn best. We only have a few lectures a week and I find them a terrible waste of time whereas Pbl makes me learn things well.

[Medicine Man]

I agree - pbl is actually quite good especially when you start covering pathologies in second year. So so so much more useful than the lectures I've found (well at least that is the case atm). The lecturers sometimes don't even stick to the learning objectives for the module.

[Piggy]

UCL clinics is pretty awesome (well, depending on your consultant I suppose) but in general it's very well planned out for you and I feel like I'm being thought about which is nice... But in pre-clinical I wish there was more small group work, being left to your own devices in 1st year is probably good skill sharpening in the long run but is a bit WOAH for a mere measley fresher

[RyuHADOUKEN]

Digression much! And before, all you undergraduates were going on that the (pre)applicants were going to be the ones chatting away on here...

[Daveo]

(Original post by CWallace91)
I'd love to know what exactly about Manchester you hate so much? Since being here I've not met anyone who really dislikes it.

And as for the above quote, maybe its not for you, but I for one know that for me personally sitting in a lecture theatre with someone talking at me for an hour isn't the way I learn best. We only have a few lectures a week and I find them a terrible waste of time whereas Pbl makes me learn things well.

I'm not unique, Manchester has consistently performed poorly in the national student survey over the last few years (last year it was last but it looks like it has improved a bit).

For the first year or two, I quite liked the course but I soon decided that for me personally PBL was a waste of time. I would have done just as well, had I been provided with a list of LOs on day one and left to my devices. I think PBL works better for graduates that are slightly more used to the principles of adult learning but for me it really was useless.

Equally I agree that sitting in lectures all day isn't a particularly stimulating way of learning. I would much prefer a combination of learning methods. As far as I'm aware, there have been some changes in that direction since I left.

Having now been exposed to another, more traditional medical curriculum, I can see that Manchester does have benefits as well as weaknesses, as I think all medical schools do. At the end of the day, if you pass the exams, you're still a doctor wherever you go but I still wouldn't recommend Manchester.

[Hydromancer]

(Original post by Daveo)
I'm not unique, Manchester has consistently performed poorly in the national student survey over the last few years (last year it was last but it looks like it has improved a bit).

For the first year or two, I quite liked the course but I soon decided that for me personally PBL was a waste of time. I would have done just as well, had I been provided with a list of LOs on day one and left to my devices. I think PBL works better for graduates that are slightly more used to the principles of adult learning but for me it really was useless.

Equally I agree that sitting in lectures all day isn't a particularly stimulating way of learning. I would much prefer a combination of learning methods. As far as I'm aware, there have been some changes in that direction since I left.

Having now been exposed to another, more traditional medical curriculum, I can see that Manchester does have benefits as well as weaknesses, as I think all medical schools do. At the end of the day, if you pass the exams, you're still a doctor wherever you go but I still wouldn't recommend Manchester.

This year, they've started giving us the ILOs after the first PBL on a particular case. Nearly everyone ignores the learning agenda we come up with and simply works towards fulfilling the ILOs. Last PBL session, we were all discussing how actually turning up for a PBL didn't really matter. However, we now treat it as a sort of "test yourself" exercise where we just try to explain concepts without looking at our notes. There are a few awkward moments when our tutor asks us to discuss something that was on our learning agenda but not on the ILOs...

Also, do any Manchester medical students here find that some of the lectures we have during the week actually go into way too much depth...?

[CWallace91]

Maybe I'm just one of the few odd ones that really likes Pbl then, it makes me think about what I'm learning much more than I would otherwise. And as for lectures I may as well go slam my head against a brick wall with inserted nails for all the good they do me. I just don't like being talked at and expected to copy down what's being said.

We do get the ILO's this year but I haven't used them for organising my work, they're pretty vague and the objectives we come up with in the group tend to be better.