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mushroomloves
this whole 'debate' has effectively demonstrated quite possibly the biggest reason as to why achieving peace has been so difficult... :shot:


Unfortunately you're not far from the truth...
Reply 81
Hmm I wonder why the Palestinians are angry with the Israelis......http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/wall/jpeg/killing.jpg My god! where is Palestine going?
Bateman
Yep, if you look to the post above yours, you can see peeweedan, he is similar to 90% of israelies who are racist and want nothing but the destruction of palestinians.

If i were you i'd talk about that.

If not, talk about democracy, Israels democracy, and Gazas lack of.


Israelis in general are not racist, or we would have no laws against racism in Knesset, no anti-racism laws, and racism would be endemic. Israel is no more racist than say... France, despite being in a precarious situation which has in the past made several nations become rather racist. And this isn't a problem of the Israeli government... the Kadima Olmert government has been entirely willing to give all necessary concessions, as had the Labour Barak government in 2001. The problem is not on our side.
not enough pussy to go around?
Reply 84
PeeWeeDan
The problem is not on our side.


No, the problem is on the other side where the Palestinians are having their houses bulldozed and their children shot when they throw rocks at the bulldozers.
Reply 85
israel is unstable... no codified constitution etc? would that be relevant
Reply 86
Bateman
But didn't you say this?


if we're talking about Hamas, the root cause is their ideological inspiration andt he support this ideology has amongst palestinians. Their ideology goes against a peaceful resolution (regardless of whether or not Israel is willing for peace)


Egypt is ran by a puppet, but tell them to either do a better job or you'll send the idf. But obviously what we really need is for the UN to go there. They may be useless but they can tell the difference between medical supplies, food, clothes etc. from rockets.


The question is what they'll do about it.

Yes, but Israelies aren't going to be happy if Israel does nothing are they?
We can't stop the rocket fire over night, it's a long term solution and Israelies want to see something done too. This way, you're killing the people who are firing the rockets and not civillians.


If you think israel DON'T have spies in gaza anyway you underestimate Israel but it's not as though Israel could proclaim a new national policy of sending spies to gaza - it kinda scuppers the point really.
Reply 87
danielf90
if we're talking about Hamas, the root cause is their ideological inspiration andt he support this ideology has amongst palestinians. Their ideology goes against a peaceful resolution (regardless of whether or not Israel is willing for peace)


Yes, but these ideologies have substance, they have some reason, so removing this reason would remove the hatred.


The question is what they'll do about it.

More than egypt atm.
J-OD
israel is unstable... no codified constitution etc? would that be relevant



The UK doesn't have a written constitution either...
And I wouldn't particularly say Israeli politics were unstable.
Reply 89
Neville 'Facking' Bartos
So did Fatah, Arafat and the PLO once upon a time, I wouldn't say that Iran "back them with rockets"... many of the rockets are either homemade, or in Russian or Chinese origin, yes Iran provides money etc. (but 90% of hamas has a social side - health, education etc..).

...and "Also that Iran is fighting proxy wars with Israel for regional influence."... I kinda doubt that. :confused:



5 Issues? Gaza, W. Bank, Right of return, Jerusalem and security?

I would say the Right of return was more of a stumbling block than Jerusalem

LIES
I don't do this course or anything, i know this will seem a pretty stupid question, but can anyone sum up why so many countries hate israel and wish it to be wiped off the face of the earth?
Reply 91
Bateman
Np, Hamas wants the desctruction of Israel, but the palestinians don't.
And Israelies want the destruction of Gaza, and because they have a democracy, they vote for the candidate who promises harsh retaliation.

Israelies are the most racist people in the world, you would have thought that after the holocaust, they wouldn't be, but the opposite has happend, in a way, they want revenge.

The Palestinians also want the destruction of Israel. That's why they voted for Hamas.
Israelis don't want the destruction of Gaza, they want to live without fear of missiles killing their children on the way to school.

Give me a shred of proof that Israelis are the most racist people in the world. Idiot.
coren111
LIES


the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...
Reply 93
Bateman
No, a fraction broke the ceasefire and Hamas clashed with the fraction too.

just look at the statistics, Hamas fired no rockets during the ceasefire and Israel admits it.

Not true. Hamas threw rockets virtually non-stop for eight years, including the ceasefire.
Reply 94
It didn't take long for the trolls to get in here.
Reply 95
dave180
The UK would not retaliate in anything like the way Israel would. We learnt from the conflict in Northern Ireland that for every freedom fighter you kill, you will create more hatred towards you and therefore there will be more freedom fighters the next time. And now things seem to be going better. Notice there's no concrete wall around Northern Ireland, by the way.


If for every "freedom fighting" terrorist you kill you create more, then you actually do advocate never defending yourself physically from terrorism, which seems a strange view to hold.

As for the wall point... lol! have you never heard of the peace lines??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Peace_Lines

Without near daily suicide bombings the fence would have been unnecessary.
Reply 96
Bubbles*de*Milo
The UK doesn't have a written constitution either...
And I wouldn't particularly say Israeli politics were unstable.




but british parliamentary politics have evolved over hundreds of years, in a way that maybe french or italian or russian systems have not, so there are still safeguards entrenched in the british political system. whereas the divisions along ethnic lines, and the parliamentary coalitions in Israel (as well as considering the context of israeli history, the israeli-palestinian conflict and their claims to sovereignty in the grander scheme of things..) i think means that it probably is less stable.
Reply 97
J-OD
but british parliamentary politics have evolved over hundreds of years, in a way that maybe french or italian or russian systems have not, so there are still safeguards entrenched in the british political system. whereas the divisions along ethnic lines, and the parliamentary coalitions in Israel (as well as considering the context of israeli history, the israeli-palestinian conflict and their claims to sovereignty in the grander scheme of things..) i think means that it probably is less stable.


Hum, that's an interesting point however I'm not sure I entirely agree. For instance, the degree to which the UK have entrenched bills - I'm sure Israel do as well, for instance I think that the Human Rights Act is comparable to the 'Basic Law: Israel Lands' in 1960 which sees same degree of entrenchment that HRA would see. And in both of these situations, they can both be cast away - with a vote of Parliament/Knesset but again, in both cases it would be harder to do so (the JNF being a factor in the later and the provisions/EU being a factor in the former). Even if you look at some of the significant constitutional faculties of the UK (parliamentary sovereignty), Israel seem to have them too - and to a much safer effect; for instance their Supreme Court is an independent of the government which seems to be safer constitutional faculty than our parliamentary sovereignty. (Both of these are - aforementioned - are supposed to be examples of entrenchment in Israel political system). Also, it's funny that you say the French because if I recall correctly, didn't they introduce a new constitution in the '50s - sure it incorporated the Rights of Man - but it isn't as easy as saying it has "evolved over hundred of years". I think your "along ethnic lines" is right though. One last point, surely all countries with PR run the risk of being a tiny bit unstable (as it ends with coalitions most of the time)? Although Israel seems to have done fairly well in spite of this - at least in terms of stability in government.

That's just my two cents :p: .. And excuse me for any mistakes, I've just written two essays and am extremely tired.
Reply 98
PeeWeeDan
Recognize and negotiate with a terrorist group who's only goal is your destruction due to a religion. What's to discuss? The method of execution? And opening the borders=more advanced rockets, removing settlers=expelling 300,000 people, giving carrots=giving opportunities to fire rocekts, sending spies=new opportunity for people to criticize us, talk with Iran=brick wall.


You demonstrate perfectly Israel's lack of willingness to engage in any kind of concessions whatsoever, believing that enemies of Israel are extremists whose views cannot be rationally justified in any way. Every time Israel fires a missile, it cretaes more enemies, more freedom fighters. Do you want the conflict to end? Do you care about the sheer number of dead women and children, or do you prefer this bloody stalemate?
Reply 99
Israelis don't want the destruction of Gaza, they want to live without fear of missiles killing their children on the way to school.


The best way to stop your own children being killed is to stop killing other people's children.

Israel's military maxim seems to be 'An eye for an eyelash'

You think you should expect to live in peace whilst keeping hundreds of thousands of former citizens of your land in an open air prison? Do you wonder why the Palestinians are angry? Murder, in any of its forms, will never create a lasting peace.

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