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Reply 60
Callum828
How is working freely, and spending your money freely anything like slavery? What if you don't take loans? What on earth do you mean?

However, it is contrasted to communism, which IS slavery, literally.


Well, most of the money you spend inevitably lands in the pockets of a very narrow group of people and contributes to the further development of the system "they" control. Look at speculation on the stock market - it's all about creating a positive image of the economy to continually power certain "positive" actions from regular people - one of them is consumption. If suddenly we face a real crisis (which can't be covered up by data and statistics) in the economy, who are the people who feel the negative effects on their own skins? Bankers from global companies, major speculants? Of course not, 99% of the "rest" of the world's population. Taking loans is what most of the people do - look at the major debt in the U.S. If you don't, then good for you - it means you're independent enough to financially rely on yourself and not become a victim of a negative cycle.

Communism in it's definition isn't slavery, sometimes the execution just becomes a bit faulty. I'm certainly not supporting it, but imho we definitely aren't headed in the right direction as it is now.
Reply 61
Callum828
Not at all. Capital is money. Capitalism is when people are allowed to spend their money as they wish. The terms are synonymous in every way.

No, capital is not money. Capital is, er, capital. The terms are not at all the same. It would be entirely possible to have a free market with no privately-held capital (i.e., Mutualism), or an economy with a great deal of economic planning but alot of capital still held privately, as you got in Nazi Germany.
arturo291
Well, most of the money you spend inevitably lands in the pockets of a very narrow group of people and contributes to the further development of the system "they" control. Look at speculation on the stock market - it's all about creating a positive image of the economy to continually power certain "positive" actions from regular people - one of them is consumption. If suddenly we face a real crisis (which can't be covered up by data and statistics) in the economy, who are the people who feel the negative effects on their own skins? Bankers from global companies, major speculants? Of course not, 99% of the "rest" of the world's population. Taking loans is what most of the people do - look at the major debt in the U.S. If you don't, then good for you - it means you're independent enough to financially rely on yourself and not become a victim of a negative cycle.

Communism in it's definition isn't slavery, sometimes the execution just becomes a bit faulty. I'm certainly not supporting it, but imho we definitely aren't headed in the right direction as it is now.


By 'sometimes in its execution' you mean every time i has been implemented to any extent, anywhere, ever? Russian socialism was certainly how it was supposed to be in theory, but that theory was slavery.

In terms of 'them' it seems like you assume a shared goal of 'them'. 'They' are just looking after themselves, much like you or I. Your explanation seems to call on some conspiracy of 'them' keeping 'us' down, which (at least in terms of the UK economy) is objectively false. The London bankers fuel the British economy, which is why this recession will be so bad. But they are certainly not the same people who say, run factories, who would be most interested in consumption levels.

Loans are free agreements. To compare them to slavery is still ridiculous, even if people take on debts they cannot pay, as they do it of their own volition.
Gremlins
No, capital is not money. Capital is, er, capital. The terms are not at all the same. It would be entirely possible to have a free market with no privately-held capital (i.e., Mutualism), or an economy with a great deal of economic planning but alot of capital still held privately, as you got in Nazi Germany.


I hate to be pedantic, but capital DOES mean money. Das Kapital means 'money' in German, and English takes the word from german.

How can you have a 'free' market if people aren't free to hold their own money? That's a paradox.
Reply 64
Callum828
I hate to be pedantic, but capital DOES mean money. Das Kapital means 'money' in German, and English takes the word from german.

No. Kapital does not mean money in German. Kapital means 'Capital', and both English and German ultimately take the word from the Latin caput; capitis, meaning 'Head (of cattle, in this case)' - livestock being one of the oldest forms of capital, since they're not directly consumed, but the stuff they produce (milk, skins, etc.) is. That's capital.
Reply 65
Callum828

Loans are free agreements. To compare them to slavery is still ridiculous, even if people take on debts they cannot pay, as they do it of their own volition.


Loans are free agreements, but they seem to be VERY encouraged by the current economic system. Try walking through town without getting a bank leaflet shoved your way, at least that's how it is in Poland nowadays. When it comes to the UK I'm not too informed. I was trying to showcase certain traits, which capitalism possesses around the world.

Today (in the era of capitalism) we are usually taught about the negative traits of communism, when it really had a few advantages. Back in the times of communism it was the other way around in socialist countries - one thing they had in common was criticising one another. :cool:

My grandfather lived in socialist Poland, he's a very open-minded person and even in those times saw some advantages of capitalism. He wasn't deported or killed for publicly expressing his opinion during rallies of the communist party in Poland! :biggrin: Once on a journey to Australia he was offered a job there (he was a navigator on a ship). He asked his prospective employer whether he had a car, the man replied "Of course!". My grandfather then asked whether he had to take a loan for it, he replied "Well yes, unfortunately I did". He then asked whether he had an apartment and received the same answer. Turns out my grandfather got his apartment for free (like the vast majority of people in those times) and bought his car in cash. We really need to look into these matters a bit more before jumping to rash conclusions. :yep:
Reply 66
HDchicky
am guessing so coz some ppl dont want to belive there such a thing as a peaceful anarchist!!


You may be a peaceful, kind anarchist, but you don't realise that other people are different to you. Other people (like me, and the large majority) would abuse the system by contributing as little as to society as possible whilst taking as much out as possible. Others (a sizeable minority, not like me) would go round killing and raping and stealing from each other. If everyone in this society was like you, or one of the other retarded anarchists from this forum, it'd work. Unfortunately, people aren't like that.
Reply 67
tommm
You may be a peaceful, kind anarchist, but you don't realise that other people are different to you. Other people (like me, and the large majority) would abuse the system by contributing as little as to society as possible whilst taking as much out as possible. Others (a sizeable minority, not like me) would go round killing and raping and stealing from each other. If everyone in this society was like you, or one of the other retarded anarchists from this forum, it'd work. Unfortunately, people aren't like that.


thank so much for explain tommm:
i know nt evry1 is the same, yes i am an anarchist but yet very peaceful but what i dnt get is how ppl [bismark]wld classify any one hu'z an anarchist as violent..
and am also not saying we abandon order in society and let wild animals lose to steal, kill and rape really am not sayin that bt i wuld lve it if the gov could try t live up to their values and moral beliefs instd
of finding a way to buy land or attack a country or figure out a new scheme to gain more power!!
Reply 68
HDchicky
thank so much for explain tommm:
i know nt evry1 is the same, yes i am an anarchist but yet very peaceful but what i dnt get is how ppl [bismark]wld classify any one hu'z an anarchist as violent..
and am also not saying we abandon order in society and let wild animals lose to steal, kill and rape really am not sayin that bt i wuld lve it if the gov could try t live up to their values and moral beliefs instd
of finding a way to buy land or attack a country or figure out a new scheme to gain more power!!


I think you completely misunderstood was Bismarck was saying. He was not accusing you of being violent at all. He was saying that a system anarchism would lead to violence. Anarchy is, by definition, a system where there is no government or higher authority. If you believe in having a government, then you're not an anarchist.
Reply 69
in a way i also think its been kind of staged and/or planned...
call me crazy but i do[the global economic slump that is]
Reply 70
in a way i also think its been kind of staged and/or planned...
call me crazy but i do[the global economic slump that is]
Reply 71
tommm
you're not an anarchist.

>P
Reply 72
Lefty communist socialites may see it as a failure, but the truth is they're wrong!!

Capitalism goes through up's and downs (boom and bust). It is similar to scientific phenomona, any economist would tell you that.

Marx was not right, and will never be prooved right!
Reply 73
HDchicky
Does the gobal economic show that capitalisim has failed? Does this mean we should being adapting socilist veiws? Should all private sectors become state owned? Should we combine the both?

Go on tell me what u think!


Yes(ish).
Capitalism has failed. It may not be so apparent in developed countries, with the gap between the rich and poor not being so wide - but if you have been to a third world country then it is very apparent.

I do think we should be adopting more socialist views, much as I hate to admit it, I do think on a global level it would be beneficial. In places like India and China the distribution of wealth is just obscene and it's not just native capitalists fault - but the fault of wealthy nations and every person in them.
No, but there is still room for improvement. There are various brands of capitalism and the incarnation that was planned at Bretton Woods is dying. It has become inappropriate for this day and age.
People forget that economic systems don't last forever. They need to change with the times.

We NEED a new political economy with a new understanding of boom and bust and long-term economic development.

Free markets allow for innovation and growth, but they need stability as well as fairness to function properly. Whilst understanding the importance of wealthy investors, we don't get a good deal from short-sighted men who care about profit more than people. People do matter, and it is foolish and nihilistic to believe that economic chaos in the truest sense of the word creates a society worth living in, or that the needs of the unfortunate are the concern of no-one.
Reply 75
:ditto:

Work need to be done to ensure the correct balance of government/authority regulation to prevent the moral hazards of capitalism while preserving the incentives to personal success that is the basis of all economics actions.
gcampb
Yes(ish).
Capitalism has failed. It may not be so apparent in developed countries, with the gap between the rich and poor not being so wide - but if you have been to a third world country then it is very apparent.

I do think we should be adopting more socialist views, much as I hate to admit it, I do think on a global level it would be beneficial. In places like India and China the distribution of wealth is just obscene and it's not just native capitalists fault - but the fault of wealthy nations and every person in them.

Lol.

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