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Reply 20
I really think pet owners need to be more educated though. Anyone can walk off the street and buy whatever animal they like without having a clue what to do with it! Trouble is most people cant be bothered. Ive seen vets despairing over owners that they have tried to help time and time again how to care for and help their pet but they are being ignored cos it would take a whole extra couple of minutes of the owners time. And whilst I dont condone this case, if the cat died on the day it was taken to the vet, this case was extremely advanced. Cats are usually the easiest to spot problems as most quickly go off food, vocalise more, change in behaviour/temperament but simple advice such as regularly checking litter trays is ignored. I accept not all cats use trays but there are so many other signs when a cat is ill and I would expect this was a very poorly moggy by the time it was taken to the vet which begs the question why was it not picked up earlier? Unfortunately more often than not the answer is simply that the owner doesnt pay enough attention to their cat to notice changes or they did spot the problem and just hoped it would get better. There is no excuse for these vets but equally the owner is also equally at fault.
emilyyy

Not quite sure what you mean by the second paragraph I'm afraid :tongue:



small animal practices especially urban ones belonging to chains that seem ot want the most money off people for simple things ... but that's because of the costs they incur with their high street / shopping mall locations and the franchise fees they pay for the twee name they go by...
Reply 22
zippyRN
small animal practices especially urban ones belonging to chains that seem ot want the most money off people for simple things ... but that's because of the costs they incur with their high street / shopping mall locations and the franchise fees they pay for the twee name they go by...


Don't quite know why you've felt the need to tell me that when all I wanted wanted was some clarification on the initial situation you'd brought up. It wasn't particularly well phrased and I had only read it through quickly a couple of times.

I reckon I'm on the same wavelength now though. I've no idea how thoughts vary between LA or SA practioners. I've not yet asked.
If there is less bad feeling towards the system (dipensing drugs outside of the surgery) by LA vets then yes, it could be down to the reason you put forward.

Your "clarification" (which was actually just a totally different point :s-smilie:) is an entirely different matter.
I would say, in regards to chains, you're probably right, yes. They do tend to mark-up prices that tad bit more. But that doesn't automatically entitle you to dismiss all the problems that arise when people refuse to by drugs from the vet. Nor does it entitle anyone to say that all vets charge extortionate prices.
If you don't like it don't take your animal to a franchise vet.

As for small animal practices doing it marking-up prices more often than large animal... from my experience and personal opinion I'd disagree with that.
mja
So does that mean that it is now acceptable in the veterinary profession to deliberately leave an animal to suffer because you object to the owner's financial habits?

All the good vets I know would say "sod the owners, look after the animal", because that's why they're vets.

Anyone who can knowingly leave an animal to suffer shouldn't be allowed to practise veterinary medicine. And interestingly (according to my vet friends) the RCVS takes quite a similar line.

The OP should make formal complaints to the RCVS against every practise she asked for help and which refused.


I suppose so. What the vet/s in question should really have done, if the person was indeed a bad debtor (sounds like it), is indeed treat the animal there and then, but then demand payment asap and if not take the bastards to court. Treatment isn't free, and that is that, good compassionate vet or not.
emilyyy
There are legitimate reasons for wanting to keep the dispensing of drugs inside the veterinary surgery only.
No regular pharmacist is going to care whether or not you're administering the drugs properly. Sure, there will be regulations (don't I just know it; I currently work in a human pharmacy) but you can bet your bottom dollar that the majority of phamacists/dispensers are going to take short-cuts that they'd never even consider with human patients.


In our chemist's the other night, whilst waiting for prescriptions to be filled, a woman noticed there were worming tablets and flea treatments available. She asked us if we could tell her what 13 stone was in kilos, as that's what her rottweiler weighs, and she was moaning about the costs of these from her vet. The pharmacist calculated the stones to kilos for her, and it was quickly obvious that the largest size the chemist had available were not going to be enough, but you couldn't just take two packs as it wasn't going to work out correctly that way either. This woman was not particularly highly educated and was worried about overdosing or underdosing, so in the end she said she would stick to her vet, but how many others...? If it hadn't been almost closing time, I don't think the pharmacist would have had time to do the calculations for her (neither of us could remember the formulae).
timetokill
Whilst this is unfortunate and im sure that there are some people in the profession for reasons other than genuine concern for each and every animal they treat, my experience with vets has been very different.


I am yet to come across one who has not displayed evident concern for the animal they are treating. I have a dog who has in the past been very ill with diabetes and she has suffered various complications over the last few years associated with this. From the minute she began having problems the vets, vetinary nurses and every staff member I have encountered have bent over backwards in order to ensure her well being and to make sure that she has recieved the best possible care.

Recently, my dog (the same one) had to have both of her eyes removed due to fear they may burst and could possibly be cancerous. Before her opperation we were talked through exactly what would happen, the risks, benefits and any other relevant information. The opperation was schedualed quickly, and the staff who had treated her from day one made special provisions to ensure that they were there to assist/conduct the opperation themselves. This was dispite the fact that the opperation could have easily been left to staff at the other practice, which was a good 15 miles away from their own practice. After the opperation, the staff have stayed in contact and have been eager to find out how she is getting on. I can give lots of other examples.

Im just thankfull that there are so many committed and hard working people out there who do care that much about the animals they treat. What amazes me most is that those involved in the treatment of my dog are all volunteers and are under no obligation to do anything at all, yet have consistantly gone out of their way to make sure that my pet has recieved the very best care possible, and I really cant thank them enough for that.

I think vetinary medicine is a very under apprecaited profession, and id like to think that most, if not all who choose to follow that career path do so because they love animals and have their best interests at heart. There are always going to be people who take advantage when there is money involved- always, but I believe that the significant majority are good, honest people who genuinly care for the animals they encounter.



I don't mean to be rude, but surely there is the point that vets often cannot do anything more in the interest of the animal, yet owners insist on treatment and what have you... A diabetic and completely blind dog I can't see how such treatment could be plausable for the interest of the animal, sorry. There are numerous examples of this everywhere... For example a paralysed dog in my village hauls itself around on a trolly and my idoit of a great aunt keeps her aged cat alive my injecting it with insulin daily.. all in all alot of stories seem ludicrous. I feel for the vets that have to battle with such animals which in fairness would be better off if put to sleep :/

I wouldn't think twice about putting one of my animals down if they had an ailment or injury so severve. My horse has just undergone orthapaedic (sp) surgery, if any terrible complications had occured, it wouldn't of even been a second thought. Thankfully, 3 months and £5000 later all is well!
Sarahl89
I don't know this person - this isnt any kind of personal gripe! I've no reason not to tell the whole story! I was just quite shocked by it when the cat could so easily have been saved but instead died in complete agony. Im not complaining about fees, just think the primary concern should be for the animal when its an emergency like that and then sort out the fees afterwards.

Also its not always that easy to spot a blocked bladder - my cat has a tendency to wee in the house so whenever we find him sitting like that the habit is to put him out! I noticed last night he had been doing it quite a lot yesterday and felt his bladder - rock solid - luckily i knew the symptoms and how serious a blocked bladder can be, but someone with no veterinary experience could be forgiven for assuming it was just the darn cat weeing in the house again and putting it out the front door till morning! i dont see how anyone can blame the owner for this case, really.


It may have been an emergency but the owner still left it 9 hours before getting treatment following an accurate diagnosis. I really can't understand how it takes that long to phone around practices, visit a vet and/or drive to the nearest PDSA clinic.

Transatlanticdrawl_
Sorry to burst your bubble OP but pretty much the only way all the local practices would refuse to treat unless paid up front, is if said client was a terrible debtor, who never paid. Most local practices email each other lists of bad debtors and they're just not worth the time of day, cheeky bastards.

All the practices I've been to would have taken it no questions and catheterised it there and then, with no questions of payment until afterwards.. unless the client happened to be a bad debtor.


Bingo.

The only other non debtor case I've heard of it happening is where the client stabbed one of the nurses (gotta love PDSA clinics).

HardUpAcuGrad
In our chemist's the other night, whilst waiting for prescriptions to be filled, a woman noticed there were worming tablets and flea treatments available. She asked us if we could tell her what 13 stone was in kilos, as that's what her rottweiler weighs, and she was moaning about the costs of these from her vet. The pharmacist calculated the stones to kilos for her, and it was quickly obvious that the largest size the chemist had available were not going to be enough, but you couldn't just take two packs as it wasn't going to work out correctly that way either. This woman was not particularly highly educated and was worried about overdosing or underdosing, so in the end she said she would stick to her vet, but how many others...? If it hadn't been almost closing time, I don't think the pharmacist would have had time to do the calculations for her (neither of us could remember the formulae).


13st Rottie? Are you sure she wasn't worming her children, or husband, or herself?
Sarahl89

As for drug prices, i know they're expensive for us too, but they really dont cost anywhere near as much as we pay to produce!!


You've got to realise that you're not just paying for the drugs, you're paying for staff wages (vets and nurses and recptionists and managers), and equiptment (and maintinence of the equptment), utility bills (heating/ water etc), the drug itslef, the delivery of the drugs, the licensing on the drugs, the expertise of the vet needed in choosing the right drug, the prescription of the drug etc.

I also read somewhere that to cover the staff costs and keep the building running, vet practises have to make £17 per consult. And this is assuming a full schedule of consultations. Most vet practises don't make this amount and so have to make enough money to keep the practise running elsewhere. A veterinary practise is an incrediblly expensive thing to run.


I saw an article in the times a couple of months ago about the costs of private human healthcare, and it is much much higher than veterinary. People just have distorted views because we're lucky enough to have the NHS
Lady Muck (Y)
I don't mean to be rude, but surely there is the point that vets often cannot do anything more in the interest of the animal, yet owners insist on treatment and what have you... A diabetic and completely blind dog I can't see how such treatment could be plausable for the interest of the animal, sorry. There are numerous examples of this everywhere... For example a paralysed dog in my village hauls itself around on a trolly and my idoit of a great aunt keeps her aged cat alive my injecting it with insulin daily.. all in all alot of stories seem ludicrous. I feel for the vets that have to battle with such animals which in fairness would be better off if put to sleep :/

I wouldn't think twice about putting one of my animals down if they had an ailment or injury so severve. My horse has just undergone orthapaedic (sp) surgery, if any terrible complications had occured, it wouldn't of even been a second thought. Thankfully, 3 months and £5000 later all is well!


ever think that the cat may be keeping her going? (assuming your great aunt is elderly)
and diabetics inject themselves with insulin daily, whats the problem with that?
Annaconda
ever think that the cat may be keeping her going? (assuming your great aunt is elderly)
and diabetics inject themselves with insulin daily, whats the problem with that?


She has another cat and a husband. The poor thing is housebound ... diabetes in humans is an utterly different topic. Sometimes it is just better to put them out of thier misery, rather than faffing around, just my opinion
Lady Muck (Y)
She has another cat and a husband. The poor thing is housebound ... diabetes in humans is an utterly different topic. Sometimes it is just better to put them out of thier misery, rather than faffing around, just my opinion


some people keep cats just as housecats anyway, i dont really see what the problem is...
Diabetes in humans is not a completely different issue... the treatments involved are the same. With regards to cats being housebound - some cats prefer being housebound. I would worry about treating a diabetic outdoor cat as forcing him/her to stay inside could have nasty behavioural etc. consequences. However, house cats and possibly unambitious outdoor cats have no problem coping with daily insulin injections and continue to lead a fulfilling life.
Admittedly, the removal of both eyes does strike certain alarm bells. However, again each dog/animal/human is individual - some cope well with blindness (you have to remember afterall that for dogs their eyes are not their principle sensory organ) whilst others don't.
It's not as if it's physically fit though! It is an incredibly aged thing, with no doubt a whole host of problems on top of diabetes, as far as I'm aware it lays on a bed all day, unable to do anthing else... which seems to be a problem, to me.
*shrugs* As I said, each case is individual. I've never met this particular cat so I wouldn't know. However, I have met many diabetic animals who can live a fulfilling life. It is happiness at the end of the day that decides this - if the cat is happy lying on the bed all day, then so be it. However, if it is not then this fast becomes a welfare issue.
This has gone completely off topic, but to clarify... before it wasn't a house cat, therefore probably wouldn't choose to be confined to a house. Treatment may be the same, but in the interest of the animal in this case it isn't viable, in my eyes. Anything like this when compared to humans becomes incredibly complex with opinions etc.
Just to add - you say that "before it wasn't a house cat" - was this change enforced by owners or chosen by the cat? If the cat has chosen to stay in and is lethargic then there is also the possibility that his/her diabetes isn't fully under-control...
I personally would trust a vet's judgement on the issue ~ they will be able to tell the difference between something treatable and something which isn't. If they have told your aunt that the cat is best put to sleep, then this is the right thing to do - if they haven't, then the issue becomes more complex.
Well my the owners because needing insulin injections etc... I'm sure they took it in years ago and it was practically ferral, which probably makes it worse, now Ive thought of it :s-smilie:

This has gone so far off topic, but is probably a very good thing that I do not want to be a vet :/ Though being a Veterinary Physio actually is much better after my rant on here :/
Lady Muck (Y)
I don't mean to be rude, but surely there is the point that vets often cannot do anything more in the interest of the animal, yet owners insist on treatment and what have you... A diabetic and completely blind dog I can't see how such treatment could be plausable for the interest of the animal, sorry. There are numerous examples of this everywhere... For example a paralysed dog in my village hauls itself around on a trolly and my idoit of a great aunt keeps her aged cat alive my injecting it with insulin daily.. all in all alot of stories seem ludicrous. I feel for the vets that have to battle with such animals which in fairness would be better off if put to sleep :/

I wouldn't think twice about putting one of my animals down if they had an ailment or injury so severve. My horse has just undergone orthapaedic (sp) surgery, if any terrible complications had occured, it wouldn't of even been a second thought. Thankfully, 3 months and £5000 later all is well!


Did you actually read what I wrote? Her eyes were swollen, it was feared that they were cancerous and they were likely to burst. Thats a perfectly good reason for treatment to me. It wasnt us who suggested or pushed for treatment, we had discussed having her put to sleep as we were afraid of her suffering anymore. It was at the suggestion of the vet (PDSA, so it wasnt about the money) that the opperation took place. Since the opperation shes been more content than she has been in the last year or so, shes more energetic and is generally a happy little dog. I too wouldnt hesitate to have any of my animals put to sleep if there were nothing more that could be done for them, or if they were suffering for a prolonged period of time/untreatable. But the fact was that in my case, there were numerous options available and I wouldnt dream of ending my animals life without first giving them a chance to live.
Reply 38
o dear, what a can of worms.

some people on here seem to of forgotten that yes while it would be nice to treat everything for free or at cost its simply not possible. vets and vet nurses are humans just like everyone else so have to eat, pay bills etc. this means they do need some sort of wage. so doing things for free/at cost would lead to a bankrupt vets very quickly. and what happens if all vets go bankrupt? we have no working vets. then what happens to all these suffering animals? they die.

some people need to do some research and think about the costs involved running a vet practice. if we didnt have the nhs it would be a hell of alot more expensive to treat a diabetic human than 10 diabetic cats.

and to the op: you said you dont know the person this story was about, in that case a highly doubt you know the entire story. chinese whispers -everything gets disorted. more often than not for the worse.

jeez there is alot of crap being talked. you shouldnt listen to most of what you hear down the grape vine.
I think that eveyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do agree with Jenny in that money has a big part in the profession (ie keeping it afloat) but in some extreame cases money shouldn't be an object if treatment would save an animals life- the costs can be sorted out later. A vet is supposed to act on the best interests of the animal, so I think that each situation is different and should be treated in an individual way. Maybe I'm talking rubbish but thats how I see it :smile:

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