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is god a ****?

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    (Original post by butthead7)
    I thought it was fairly obvious that comment was a joke, sorry if that wasn't clear to you
    what a shame, I've already marked you down as a false prophet and prayed to the benevolent God of mine to strike you down :o:
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    because the purpose of this life is to worship god, you don't do that, you suffer the consequences.
    God must be a bit full of himself imho.
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    ..... God is a DJ....................








    ........ and life is the dancefloor...........
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    (Original post by Feral Beast)
    But not exactly benevolent either, right? Would a 'laissez-faire' God really be benevolent if he did nothing in the face of human suffering throughout the world? Scripture claims that 'God is good', 'God is loving', 'God is merciful'. The claim is there that He is benevolent. Reality disagrees.

    Remember, omnipotence is a huge claim to make. An all powerful God could rid the world of suffering, by definition.
    Maybe God's creation of humans with free will and his allowance of things on earth to run their natural course so to speak overides the need (assuming such a need exists, as im not sure that an omnipotent god would have to do anything by definition) for God to step in and prevent suffering (on this plane of existence at least). Would an omnibenevolent God be omnibenevolent if he removed the human right of free will?

    He could prevent it, but whether he would choose to is a different issue IMO.
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    (Original post by butthead7)
    but theres no evidence to suggest that we are judged when we die. who says the rules of god in bible are the right ones and not the rules of god written in the koran?
    I see what you mean but that's just my personal opinion.
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    (Original post by Lachlan)
    God must be a bit full of himself imho.
    well if he created us then he has the right to be. It's like The Sims.
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    (Original post by Oladz)
    Maybe God's creation of humans with free will and his allowance of things on earth to run their natural course so to speak overides the need (assuming such a need exists, as im not sure that an omnipotent god would have to do anything by definition) for God to step in and prevent suffering (on this plane of existence at least). Would an omnibenevolent God be omnibenevolent if he removed the human right of free will?

    He could prevent it, but whether he would choose to is a different issue IMO.
    Two points to your claim that evil exists because of free will:

    1) why do babies die? Their actions have not marked them as evil. What about people that die as a result not of their actions, as in a forest fire or earthquake?

    2) If God knows everything, per definition he knows your future. If he knows your future, your future cannot be any other way than that which God knows. Therefore, whatever you do will be foreseen by God, and you cannot possibly do anything which God didn't predict. Since God created you in first place, he thus has perfect knowledge that he has created someone who will go to heaven or hell. It seems a bit cruel to create someone purely so that you can punish him for doing something that he could not possibly not do.
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    (Original post by Azer)
    Two points to your claim that evil exists because of free will:

    1) why do babies die? Their actions have not marked them as evil. What about people that die as a result not of their actions, as in a forest fire or earthquake?
    Sorry, are you implying death is a result of doing evil?
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    (Original post by Azer)
    2) If God knows everything, per definition he knows your future. If he knows your future, your future cannot be any other way than that which God knows. Therefore, whatever you do will be foreseen by God, and you cannot possibly do anything which God didn't predict. Since God created you in first place, he thus has perfect knowledge that he has created someone who will go to heaven or hell. It seems a bit cruel to create someone purely so that you can punish him for doing something that he could not possibly not do.
    Just because you're doing something God has forseen doesnt mean your free-will has been removed, does it?

    Your argument is effectively one on pre destination. I dont claim to know the answer but 2 Kings 20:1-6 give an interesting insight into whether it exists or not: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1-8&version=49
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    (Original post by Oladz)
    Would an omnibenevolent God be omnibenevolent if he removed the human right of free will?
    I still remember this argument from my Catholic RE classes and I have never understood it to be honest. I'm almost certain this has been gone through many times on this site before and ultimately if you are convinced by it then you are are convinced by it and that's fine. I am not used to debating theological positions but I am pretty used to the Bible and I'll just give my personal opinion on the issue.

    I'm not convinced by the free will argument, for this reason. I'll go back to the claims about God: 1. He made the Universe and 2. He's omnipotent.

    Given that he made the universe, he has set the natural laws as to require that free will and the non-existence of suffering be mutually exclusive. Again, it is claimed that he is all-powerful. No natural principles are above the laws of the Abrahamic God, so why should he require that free will and the existence of suffering be mutually exclusive? After all, as the Creator, he must have established the current natural order.

    Also, about the very nature of our free will: free will is essentially the ability to make choices and to decide our own actions. God has set the scope of our free will and the scope of actions available to us. We do not, for example, have the ability to individually destroy the whole planet (in our natural human state). Humans have a very limited scope of abilities, we are not omnipotent like God is claimed to be. Now, on what basis did God decide our scope of ability? He is the one who defined our abilities as humans. If He is the creator, then He gave us the ability to do evil and commit suffering, but also the temptation to commit suffering.

    Also, not all suffering is a direct consequence of human actions: natural disasters, etc. And people are placed in circumstances where they are tempted to commit suffering - poverty and desperation, for example.

    Anyway, that's my opinion on the issue. I certainly don't expect to convince anyone else - just explaining why I don't buy the argument.
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    (Original post by Feral Beast)
    I'm not convinced by the free will argument, for this reason. I'll go back to the claims about God: 1. He made the Universe and 2. He's omnipotent.

    Given that he made the universe, he has set the natural laws as to require that free will and the non-existence of suffering be mutually exclusive. Again, it is claimed that he is all-powerful. No natural principles are above the laws of the Abrahamic God, so why should he require that free will and the existence of suffering be mutually exclusive? After all, as the Creator, he must have established the current natural order.
    I see where your coming from but I dont personally think he made them mutually exclusive, I think he did however make it so that non-suffering cannot prevent the excercise of free-will.

    I dont understand your point about natural order.

    (Original post by Feral Beast)
    Also, about the very nature of our free will: free will is essentially the ability to make choices and to decide our own actions. God has set the scope of our free will and the scope of actions available to us. We do not, for example, have the ability to individually destroy the whole planet (in our natural human state). Humans have a very limited scope of abilities, we are not omnipotent like God is claimed to be. Now, on what basis did God decide our scope of ability? He is the one who defined our abilities as humans.
    Im not too sure how our scope of free-will comes into it, please explain.

    Ah, i see, IMO free-will is the ability to make decisions whithin the bounds of what we are physically capable of doing. (as opposed to something like God telling us to bow down and worship him and making us not able to hit people for example)

    I think my personal view of omnibenevolence is quite different to other people's to be honest.
    Some people understand it to meant that God's perceived actions (or inaction for that matter) can theoretically take one of two values; Benevolent or malevolent. I personally believe that God's inaction can take a third neutral value. I accept that this may contradict with "God always being good", but i think that in itself may be dependant on what one understands that phrase to mean.
    For example, if I go outside and find (without actively searching for) £1 on the floor, i'd think its good. If I went outside and didnt find £1, I would neither be upset or happy. I would describe the first event as positive, the second event as neutral, not negative.
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    (Original post by butthead7)
    but then couldn't everyone lead a life aware of "gods rules" but not bothering to adhere to them knowing that when they died they could just beg for forgiveness and go to heaven?
    But when we do something bad, we feel bad don't we? This is because our 'consciences' are a direct link to our souls, infused into our bodies by God to keep us on the right path. Therefore I believe that most people are inherently good, regardless of whether they have faith or not. But then of course there are others who revel in evil and will only repent at the end of their lives because they are scared of going to Hell.

    What you have to remember is that God can see right though our souls, therefore can distunguish between genuine remorse and insincere remorse; If you're truly sorry at the end of your life that you didn't believe in him then God will forgive you.
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    Ive alwas believed that an atheist wouldnt be judged or sent to hell by God just because. If an atheist lived a good life, law abiding, good person etcc then I believe they'd be welcomed by God

    the same way a religious person who does bad things e.g those suicide bombers wont be welcomed.
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    (Original post by Magnum Opus)
    Sorry, are you implying death is a result of doing evil?
    No. I'm wondering why, if evil exists only because of human free will, agents that have made no actions can suffer from diseases/death. Surely it cannot be 'punishment' and therefore is hard to justify for an omnibenevolent creator.
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    (Original post by Oladz)
    Just because you're doing something God has forseen doesnt mean your free-will has been removed, does it?

    Your argument is effectively one on pre destination. I dont claim to know the answer but 2 Kings 20:1-6 give an interesting insight into whether it exists or not: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1-8&version=49
    OK, let me put it this way:
    Since God knows everything, God will know exactly what I will do at any given point. I cannot do anything other than this single action. Therefore, I cannot choose another action; I have no free will.

    Think about it as if there was a giant book in which every detail of your life is recorded. This situation means that your life is set from the minute you are born, or even before that. You therefore have no say in the matter. However, in order to have free will you must be able to influence the course of your life. It is, however, impossible to do anything else than what God has foreseen, for otherwise God would not be omniscient. So from the moment you are born, the outcome of every choice in your life has already been determined.

    So once we have a God, we have determinism. Try convincing me that you can have both free will and determinism at the same time.
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    (Original post by lollapalooza)
    But when we do something bad, we feel bad don't we? This is because our 'consciences' are a direct link to our souls, infused into our bodies by God to keep us on the right path. Therefore I believe that most people are inherently good, regardless of whether they have faith or not. But then of course there are others who revel in evil and will only repent at the end of their lives because they are scared of going to Hell.

    What you have to remember is that God can see right though our souls, therefore can distunguish between genuine remorse and insincere remorse; If you're truly sorry at the end of your life that you didn't believe in him then God will forgive you.
    fair point. this is of course assuming god exists which is unlikely but i guess this isn't a thread for that debate.
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    Ah, the inconsistent triad. Google is your friend, or take A level RS, that should satisfy your curiosity.
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    (Original post by Azer)
    OK, let me put it this way:
    Since God knows everything, God will know exactly what I will do at any given point. I cannot do anything other than this single action. Therefore, I cannot choose another action; I have no free will.

    Think about it as if there was a giant book in which every detail of your life is recorded. This situation means that your life is set from the minute you are born, or even before that. You therefore have no say in the matter. However, in order to have free will you must be able to influence the course of your life. It is, however, impossible to do anything else than what God has foreseen, for otherwise God would not be omniscient. So from the moment you are born, the outcome of every choice in your life has already been determined.

    So once we have a God, we have determinism. Try convincing me that you can have both free will and determinism at the same time.
    Evidently not from the example I gave you.

    I thnk I may have defined what I mean by free-will in one of my responses. Something along the lines of "the freedom to act as one pleases" - is this not the case? That said, God allows this choice whilst simultaneously knowing that these choices will be made. He is omniscient and allows free-will.
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    (Original post by Mr. MadMonkey)
    Well the bible says we get thrown into hell regardless of how we lived if we don't believe in the guy. So presumably the faithful of the board try find some insane way to justify that without killing his "all loving"-ness.
    you may be throwns into hell but your level of punishment will be significantly less than those of the transgressors
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    (Original post by Feral Beast)
    Well, yes, really.

    Claims about God:

    1. He is omniscient
    2. He is benevolent
    3. He is omnipotent

    These three claims simply cannot be true together, due to the existence of evil. If God exists, at least one of the above isn't true.

    I think the fact that God has given us free will to love and worship him through choice has allowed us to bring evil into the world. He won't get rid of the evil, even though he is able, because he wants us to love Him freely, not because he is evil himself.

    Allegedly.
Updated: November 25, 2010
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