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Law League Tables and University Comparisons

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    Just look at it from an employers point of view. 100s of applications to read through, little time, 100s people same age, school, then uni some employment some extra curricular how do you choose who to interview.
    Bradford students - average or less than average Alevels why else would you be doing your degree at Bradford unless you were a student living at home. 2.1 from Bradford quality of that degree is pretty much an unknown quantity
    Oxbridge - 4 As + probably, 2.1 Oxbridge had to interview for a place and Ox applications are amazingly competitive so you know that they interview well. Ox degrees are known not to be for slackers, hasn't got the party reputation of some other unis. You know that this person is among one of the elite intelligence wise in the country. Even if the other has more specific skills you know that someone from Oxbridge has a quick brain and can pick things up quickly or else they wouldn't have been in Oxbridge.
    You can only interview one, which would you pick.

    It stands to reason that Oxbridge have higher employment rates.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    That is exactly my point, not everybody wants the oxbridge jobs.
    Maybe not but Oxbridge is going to haev better employment rates. More recruitment opportunities higher start salaries.
    It doesn't mean that noone from another uni stands a chance but it means oxbridge has a better pick up rate.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    That is exactly my point, not everybody wants the oxbridge jobs.
    Surely that is not at all relevant?

    I would have thought that job prospects would have meant the ability to gain WHATEVER job someone wanted - and for that, attending the traditional universities opens up the most doors.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    I am not sure specificaly for 1) but to simply say that Oxbridge is better for everything is pure snobbery.
    But to assert otherwise without evidence or reasoning is just speculation...
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    But remember in so many cases Braford and Oxbridge students won't be competing for the same jobs! There are otherways of getting graduate jobs other than going through the normal graduate jobs channel.

    So many large companies take on graduates form the lesser univerisities, BNFL for example have always employed lots of Salford students.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    But remember in so many cases Braford and Oxbridge students won't be competing for the same jobs! There are otherways of getting graduate jobs other than going through the normal graduate jobs channel.
    You mean a Bradford Graduate could "get in the back door." So to speak?

    Surely then you support our argument? It is vastly *easier* and there are more *opportunities* for an Oxbridge Graduate than for a Bradford Graduate to gain and secure a good job.

    The "normal" graduate channel is the easiest way anywhere...
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    (Original post by Dreama)
    You mean a Bradford Graduate could "get in the back door." So to speak?

    Surely then you support our argument? It is vastly *easier* and there are more *opportunities* for an Oxbridge Graduate than for a Bradford Graduate to gain and secure a good job.

    The "normal" graduate channel is the easiest way anywhere...
    Not really there are many jobs which require the skills without training which are at graduate level but the companies cannot afford to train them fully. This where more vocational courses come in handy.

    In general it is easier for oxbridge students to get good jobs thoughbut things like the course structure and what that student has learn't can mean quite a lot.

    It really depends on the job, for general graduation schemes such as management then of course Oxbridge students are likely to find it easier to get on them. But if you wanted to apply for a job as a Gold Course manager I reckon a degree from Anycity HE college in that topic might get you further depending on the student.

    All I am simply trying to do is to look at it objectivly rather than automaticaly assuming a league table is wrong becuase somthing is higher than Oxbridge, in law that might well the case but not for every subject. That was my original point to my comment.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    Not really there are many jobs which require the skills without training which are at graduate level but the companies cannot afford to train them fully. This where more vocational courses come in handy.

    In general it is easier for oxbridge students to get good jobs thoughbut things like the course structure and what that student has learn't can mean quite a lot.

    It really depends on the job, for general graduation schemes such as management then of course Oxbridge students are likely to find it easier to get on them. But if you wanted to apply for a job as a Gold Course manager I reckon a degree from Anycity HE college in that topic might get you further depending on the student.

    All I am simply trying to do is to look at it objectivly rather than automaticaly assuming a league table is wrong becuase somthing is higher than Oxbridge, in law that might well the case but not for every subject. That was my original point to my comment.
    In minority cases. Oxbridge clearly have better employment prospects you haven't disproved that in any way.There might be the odd exception to the rule but thats the general trend.
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    But the times salary statistics proove that the average salary you get dosn't always depend on the percieved reputation. Otherwise how can Bolton, TVU etc have higher starting saleries than Durham?

    What matters more tha anything is the department and the subject, it all depends on the reputation of that, if a course at a certain university has a good reputation with employers then they will always favour those departments. For many subjects these prefered departments are those from Oxbridge but it really depends on the subject.

    To put it another way I am not at all worried about my employment prospects.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    I am not saying that Bradford is better than Oxbridge I am just saying for some subjects it might be.

    I have never said Bradford is better than Oxbridge for law either its not what I am saying but you can't automaticaly dismiss the league tables either. Clearly the Guardian is wrong in the case of law but for other subjects it might be, especialy less than traditional ones.

    When I first made these comments I forget this was in the law sub forum which may have caused some confusion.

    Anyway the starting saleries

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...246744,00.html
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...246650,00.html

    It shows that in general the better the university is the higher the starting salery but it also shows that this rule is very general. TVU beats many well established universities.

    HESA stats are pretty flawed and deceptive aren't they because they are only taken only 6 months after graduation. People at more academic unis may go onto further education or may be temping waiting for their grad recruitment to finish - most grad recruitment programs can take upwards of a year and this would reflect on the grad starting salary.
    Somewhere like TVU where I believe most of the students are locals would have higher starting salaries in this instance because TVU is based in London and salaries are generally higher.


    I know a group of people who went to Durham uni, all but one of which did a post grad the one that didn't spent a yr travelling abroad. They are all now except for one and she is doing a phd working in grad employment.
    This wouldn't be reflected in the HESA tables because 6 months after graduation they wouldn't have been in paid employment. Doesn't mean that they have inferior employment prospects though. Its deceptive.
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    (Original post by viviki)
    HESA stats are pretty flawed and deceptive aren't they because they are only taken only 6 months after graduation. People at more academic unis may go onto further education or may be temping waiting for their grad recruitment to finish - most grad recruitment programs can take upwards of a year and this would reflect on the grad starting salary.
    Somewhere like TVU where I believe most of the students are locals would have higher starting salaries in this instance because TVU is based in London and salaries are generally higher.
    It it true it they are flawed , TVU isn't really London depsite their false marketing claims but I guess its in the South East and its near the UK's Silcon valley which probably does expalin their high saleries. I really cannot explain Bolton's at all though other than that all their courses seem to be vocational (including law).

    I think when it comes to research and masters then the university you went to is probably more important but I cannot back that up.

    As a final note I wish entry requirements were not included in the league tables as this is very distorted. Lancaster being a classic example, it has low entry requirements but the university itself is very good, the reason it is has low entry standards (for a university of its calibre) its the location is not that deserable. All entry requirements really measure is demand, not how hard the degree is.

    Although my course seems to completly though that rule out of the window so its not always the case (it has higher entry requirments than media studies despite media studies being more popular at my university)

    The problem is how do you measure the sucess of a university?
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    I never thought I'd participate in a debate about who was better. Bradford or Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by Dreama)
    I never thought I'd participate in a debate about who was better. Bradford or Oxbridge.
    That is not what the debate was ever supposed to be about I never once claimed Braford was better not for law anyway, but for certain subjects or jobs I am sure Bradford probably is better.

    You can't assume Oxbridge is best for every single subject.
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    I've never made such an assumption.

    But in terms of career prospects, for Law, it certainly remains unrivalled.
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    (Original post by Dreama)
    I've never made such an assumption.

    But in terms of career prospects, for Law, it certainly remains unrivalled.
    Yep and I can't make any argument to disagree with you. I am sure if this argument is valid and if it is I am sure it will prove that Oxbridge is better for law, but just forget about the history of the two places, which one would be better?

    The history is important but the league tables cannot measure that, which could mean that statisticaly Bradford is better (it probably isn't though). I suppose as already said here the job prospects are not accurate becuase the Braford law students may getting jobs in McDonald's where the Oxbridge ones may take their time or go onto to further study.

    PS I never thought I would be debating if Oxbridge is better than Bradford or not either :p:
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    (Original post by Dreama)
    I never thought I'd participate in a debate about who was better. Bradford or Oxbridge.
    For a moment, I thought I was on a different planet. Bradford vs Oxbridge for law???
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    (Original post by AT82)
    Braford was better not for law anyway, but for certain subjects or jobs I am sure Bradford probably is better.
    you are 'certain' that bradford is 'probably' better..? which one is it? And better in what sense? Maybe for the individual in the style of the course, but i'd like to see why you think for some degrees which are offered at both bradford and oxbridge, bradford gives you better prospects.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    That is not what the debate was ever supposed to be about I never once claimed Braford was better not for law anyway, but for certain subjects or jobs I am sure Bradford probably is better.

    You can't assume Oxbridge is best for every single subject.
    To be fair, there are suprisingly few courses that are offered by both Bradford and Oxbridge, so a direct comparison is difficult...
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    (Original post by AT82)
    It it true it they are flawed , TVU isn't really London depsite their false marketing claims but I guess its in the South East and its near the UK's Silcon valley which probably does expalin their high saleries. I really cannot explain Bolton's at all though other than that all their courses seem to be vocational (including law).

    I think when it comes to research and masters then the university you went to is probably more important but I cannot back that up.

    As a final note I wish entry requirements were not included in the league tables as this is very distorted. Lancaster being a classic example, it has low entry requirements but the university itself is very good, the reason it is has low entry standards (for a university of its calibre) its the location is not that deserable. All entry requirements really measure is demand, not how hard the degree is.

    Although my course seems to completly though that rule out of the window so its not always the case (it has higher entry requirments than media studies despite media studies being more popular at my university)

    The problem is how do you measure the sucess of a university?
    That isn't the point my point was that people from say the top 10 redbrick unis are likely to graduate later because of travelling and postgrads therefore the HESA stats aren't accurate because after 6 months they wouldn't be in grad jobs but after say a year this picture would be drastically different.
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    (Original post by AT82)
    The history is important but the league tables cannot measure that, which could mean that statisticaly Bradford is better (it probably isn't though). I suppose as already said here the job prospects are not accurate becuase the Braford law students may getting jobs in McDonald's where the Oxbridge ones may take their time or go onto to further study.
    But the history of the places is vitally important, but discounting that, Oxbrdige will still undoubtedly have the better teaching and research facilities...

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