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“If you failed in gaining a commission, would you consider an NCO position?”.....
Evening all ,
Just swotting up for my filter interview and having thoughts about the following question…
“If you failed in gaining a commission, would you consider an NCO position?”
Truthfully, I would not. Not only do both pilots and WSO’s have commissions, half (ish) the attraction to the RAF is the ‘Officier Lifestyle’. NCO trades have no attraction to me at all (including WSOp).
How do people think about this answer? Does it mean I’m ‘selfish’ and would only take the best, or does it prove that I know what I want?
Any thoughts….? Just need some confirmation and other input….
Thanks
Just swotting up for my filter interview and having thoughts about the following question…
“If you failed in gaining a commission, would you consider an NCO position?”
Truthfully, I would not. Not only do both pilots and WSO’s have commissions, half (ish) the attraction to the RAF is the ‘Officier Lifestyle’. NCO trades have no attraction to me at all (including WSOp).
How do people think about this answer? Does it mean I’m ‘selfish’ and would only take the best, or does it prove that I know what I want?
Any thoughts….? Just need some confirmation and other input….
Thanks
Scroll to see replies
personally, i wouldn't mention the officer lifestyle as your main reason for wanting your commission as it may seem that your focus would appear to be more on the luxuries of the trade rather than the work itself. maybe something along the lines of "being an RAF officer is a very different experience to being an NCO. although i might consider it if i didn't attain a commission, i strive for a challenge and i feel that the duties and responsibilities of an officer suit me far better than an enlisted member".
im not really sure tho, i havn't applied to the RAF and dont know exactly what they are looking for in you. good luck with your application!
im not really sure tho, i havn't applied to the RAF and dont know exactly what they are looking for in you. good luck with your application!
No, I wouldn't consider it either. They are very different jobs, and NCO does not offer what I am seeking in a career.
Just to be clear - I don't think there is anything wrong with NCO as a career - it's just not for me!
(At my first OASC, they actually prefaced that question with "I think I know the answer to this, but ..." - so I wasn't expected to go into detailed reasons. I'm not sure I like to think what that says about me!)
Just to be clear - I don't think there is anything wrong with NCO as a career - it's just not for me!
(At my first OASC, they actually prefaced that question with "I think I know the answer to this, but ..." - so I wasn't expected to go into detailed reasons. I'm not sure I like to think what that says about me!)
It's perfectly acceptable to say 'No, NCA is not for me'. It shows you know there is a big difference in the roles and it shows (rightly or wrongly) that you measure yourself at a specific professional level, ie managerial material.
I don't think lifestyle issues are a bad excuse, they are honest, but there might be more sophisticated reasons you can give about achieving your potential, diversity of employment etc.
I don't think lifestyle issues are a bad excuse, they are honest, but there might be more sophisticated reasons you can give about achieving your potential, diversity of employment etc.
Raf_Sam
Truthfully, I would not. Not only do both pilots and WSO’s have commissions, half (ish) the attraction to the RAF is the ‘Officier Lifestyle’. NCO trades have no attraction to me at all (including WSOp).
Truthfully, I would not. Not only do both pilots and WSO’s have commissions, half (ish) the attraction to the RAF is the ‘Officier Lifestyle’. NCO trades have no attraction to me at all (including WSOp).
Sam, please can you tell me the difference between the lifestyle of an officer and that of an NCO?
I would rather be a leader than a manager (which is ultimately what an SNCO does - the Officer is the decider and the actioner whilst the SNCO 'gets the job done'). To put it simply anyway... within the RAF, sadly WSOp is only open to the NCO route which makes it a difficult situation to address: you get the role however it isn't like other SNCO jobs to some degree. Kind of a middle ground....
Lady Venom
I would rather be a leader than a manager (which is ultimately what an SNCO does - the Officer is the decider and the actioner whilst the SNCO 'gets the job done'). To put it simply anyway... within the RAF, sadly WSOp is only open to the NCO route which makes it a difficult situation to address: you get the role however it isn't like other SNCO jobs to some degree. Kind of a middle ground....
A lot of SNCOs in ground trades would stronly disagree with that statement and having been both, the difference between a JO and SNCO is not that great. Different for aircrew world maybe but I don't have experience in that. If you have a look at QR503 and appendix 27 you will see that there isn't much difference in expected duties for NCOs (for those of you interested you can look them up on google)
A little taster below:
3. A WO or NCO should be able to increasingly employ each of the following RAF Leadership Attributes through his own Leadership Style:
a. Warfighter – Courageous.
b. Emotionally intelligent.
c. Flexible and responsive.
d. Willing to take risks.
e. Able to handle ambiguity.
f. Mentally agile and physically robust.
g. Politically and globally astute – Air Warfare minded.
h. Technologically competent.
i. Able to lead tomorrow’s Recruit.
hootandroar
A lot of SNCOs in ground trades would stronly disagree with that statement and having been both, the difference between a JO and SNCO is not that great. Different for aircrew world maybe but I don't have experience in that. If you have a look at QR503 and appendix 27 you will see that there isn't much difference in expected duties for NCOs (for those of you interested you can look them up on google)
A little taster below:
3. A WO or NCO should be able to increasingly employ each of the following RAF Leadership Attributes through his own Leadership Style:
a. Warfighter – Courageous.
b. Emotionally intelligent.
c. Flexible and responsive.
d. Willing to take risks.
e. Able to handle ambiguity.
f. Mentally agile and physically robust.
g. Politically and globally astute – Air Warfare minded.
h. Technologically competent.
i. Able to lead tomorrow’s Recruit.
A little taster below:
3. A WO or NCO should be able to increasingly employ each of the following RAF Leadership Attributes through his own Leadership Style:
a. Warfighter – Courageous.
b. Emotionally intelligent.
c. Flexible and responsive.
d. Willing to take risks.
e. Able to handle ambiguity.
f. Mentally agile and physically robust.
g. Politically and globally astute – Air Warfare minded.
h. Technologically competent.
i. Able to lead tomorrow’s Recruit.
However, if you accept that there really is such a great similarity, then NCOs are schmucks for doing the same job with less pay. If they have to achieve those attributes to the same level as an Officer, then why aren't they doing the same job? The facts on the ground are that whatever gucci new management speak you lay on it, the buck stops with the Officer and the Officer has is being prepared for a far more extensive and reponsible career. NCOs aren't schmucks, they are people who have or choose career options with far less diverse potential and responsibility than Officers.
I suggest that you found them similar because you experienced them in the form of a smooth progression in your own personal capacity ie you grew professionally faster than the original job you signed up for allowed. That's why commissioning from the ranks opportunities exist. It doesn't mean the jobs are the same.
Besides which, the comparisson between a JO and a SNCO is not a valid one. One person has 3 years experience, the other could have 23. By the time an Officer has 23 years experience they are a Sqn Ldr/Wg Cdr or out of the service. NCA gain accelerated promotion to SNCO, but they do not fill management roles until they have similar levels of experience under their belt, ie you aren't going to be a section leader on your Sqn until your 4th tour/10 years ish, which probably equates pretty closely to a strong ground branch airman - in as much as there can be averages across trades.
The Flt Cdr role that most non aircrew officers find themselves in equates far more closely to that of a SNCO. As a newly promoted SNCO at around the 10-15 year mark the responsibilities can directly correlate to those of the JO up to the senior Flt Lt both in responsibility and variety of job types. The IPT, role office, HQ Air jobs have been swapped between SNCOs and JOs in my experience. I agree that the time served/ life experience levels do change the mix somewhat which is why JMLC and IMLC are able to be so much shorter than IOT. One of the historically limiting factors has not been whether the non commissioned have the ability to do the job, but whether they have the academic qualifications (thus the graduation of academic qualification required for commissioning from the ranks decreasing with time and rank).
With reference to the original question, I choose and still believe that I would rather have a commission rather than a specific job because there are greater long term opportunities as an officer and greater long term responsibilities available and a better pension (CASWO not included). Also the officers No. 1s and No. 5s look better.
I believe my original point stands for blunties and with progression up from sergeant to WO their experience and management does directly trans late to that of a JO and for WO even that of Sqn Ldr. As for the pay they get more too until you reach senior Sqn Ldr levels.
With reference to the original question, I choose and still believe that I would rather have a commission rather than a specific job because there are greater long term opportunities as an officer and greater long term responsibilities available and a better pension (CASWO not included). Also the officers No. 1s and No. 5s look better.
I believe my original point stands for blunties and with progression up from sergeant to WO their experience and management does directly trans late to that of a JO and for WO even that of Sqn Ldr. As for the pay they get more too until you reach senior Sqn Ldr levels.
hootandroar
for blunties and with progression up from sergeant to WO their experience and management does directly trans late to that of a JO and for WO even that of Sqn Ldr. As for the pay they get more too until you reach senior Sqn Ldr levels.
for blunties and with progression up from sergeant to WO their experience and management does directly trans late to that of a JO and for WO even that of Sqn Ldr. As for the pay they get more too until you reach senior Sqn Ldr levels.
And there in lies the difference between joining the ranks and starting your career with a commission. In 35 years in the ranks, you can achieve what you can achieve in the first 15 years of a commissioned career, but without 20 more years of career growth available.
It's a choice, they are different.
I think, it would be helpful if you guys could tell us, why is the recruitment process then so much different for NCO' and CO's?
And also If someone who is well capable of being a Commissioned Officer, somehow takes on the offer of an NCO, how would that effect on their future.
For me, I would say "NO" to an NCO offer, because of my ambitions and what I believe I have the potential for.
But it may help others who are still deciding on what to do or have thought about falling back on NCO if not Commisoned. I have seen a lot of posts on this forum regarding this and as the debate started again, why not give us wannabe's your thoughts
And also If someone who is well capable of being a Commissioned Officer, somehow takes on the offer of an NCO, how would that effect on their future.
For me, I would say "NO" to an NCO offer, because of my ambitions and what I believe I have the potential for.
But it may help others who are still deciding on what to do or have thought about falling back on NCO if not Commisoned. I have seen a lot of posts on this forum regarding this and as the debate started again, why not give us wannabe's your thoughts
newboyintown
I think, it would be helpful if you guys could tell us, why is the recruitment process then so much different for NCO' and CO's?
And also If someone who is well capable of being a Commissioned Officer, somehow takes on the offer of an NCO, how would that effect on their future.
For me, I would say "NO" to an NCO offer, because of my ambitions and what I believe I have the potential for.
But it may help others who are still deciding on what to do or have thought about falling back on NCO if not Commisoned. I have seen a lot of posts on this forum regarding this and as the debate started again, why not give us wannabe's your thoughts
And also If someone who is well capable of being a Commissioned Officer, somehow takes on the offer of an NCO, how would that effect on their future.
For me, I would say "NO" to an NCO offer, because of my ambitions and what I believe I have the potential for.
But it may help others who are still deciding on what to do or have thought about falling back on NCO if not Commisoned. I have seen a lot of posts on this forum regarding this and as the debate started again, why not give us wannabe's your thoughts
I'm not sure what you are looking for. The recruiting process is different because the jobs are different, in the way we have been describing above. And be sure what you are talking about, you can't be recruited to be an NCO per se.
Some Airman roles ie PTI and Police get accelerated promotion to Cpl, a JNCO rank, but the recruitment process is pretty much the same as for any Airman trade, via the AFCO.
Airman Aircrew, or NCA get accelerated promotion to Sgt, an SNCO rank. They are recruited via the AFCO and then OASC because their aircrew aptitudes need to be tested.
If you already have the potential to be an officer, but take up an airman or NCA job, you are likely to be extremely frustrated by the lack of potential in your career. Or maybe you will just chill and rest on your laurels - it depends what sort of person you are. If you don't know that you have the potential, but it emerges once you get into the Service, then as Hootandroar did, you can compete to get an internal commission.
If you want to 'fall back' on an NCA or airman role, I think you have to very honest with yourself about where your talents lie and what you want out of a career. There is not (contrary to some recruiting adverts) a job for everyone in the Armed Forces. Unfortunately, it is perfectly possible to not be officer material, but not be airman material either. You must do your homework and realise how the lifestyles, pay and career opportunities are very different and you won't get much sympathy for ending up somewhere you are unhappy with, because you didn't do yoru research.
As general rule, you should always aim for the highest entry level you have the qualifications for. If you get knocked back, then you have to consider your position very carefully, read the debrief and make sure you understand it. Lots of people get through OASC on their second or third attempt, so one knock back isn't the end of things.
Well the reason why I asked the questions was not because of myself, as I know very well that I will never be happy being a NCO or a SNCO with limited responsibilites.
There is a few posts I have come accross where people have applied for both non-commissioned and commissioned officers so that they can fly. Also onn my visit to Shawbury, we were asked if we are not successful, we may want to look at the ATC SNCO position, a few guys in my group were thinking about it.
Of course there is a few people who have succesfully applied and became Officers, but my understanding is that the number isn't that many.
So I think it would help everyone who is in the same situation in the application process, undecided or just want to join to fly as a NC Aircrew rather than thinking of the future implications.
There is a few posts I have come accross where people have applied for both non-commissioned and commissioned officers so that they can fly. Also onn my visit to Shawbury, we were asked if we are not successful, we may want to look at the ATC SNCO position, a few guys in my group were thinking about it.
Of course there is a few people who have succesfully applied and became Officers, but my understanding is that the number isn't that many.
So I think it would help everyone who is in the same situation in the application process, undecided or just want to join to fly as a NC Aircrew rather than thinking of the future implications.
If you want to fly at any cost then if not successful as a pilot then NCA can be an option but if you are knocked back from a graound branch then consider going for the airman equivalent then make sure you are very sure of the difference and how long it may take to get to a posistion of responsibility.
I would not advise someone to join up as an airman only to get a commission. I joined the ranks because I did not have the academic quals to be an officer and it wasn't until I got to newly promoted SNCO that I went for commision as I had changed in the intervening 16 years and was capable of more (well i thought so LOL). The trade and external qualifications I had gained in that time meant I was more than academically qualified but I still had a lot to learn about true academic studies (and I still am learning).
Average 10-20% of people on IOT are ex-airman so that gives you an idea of the percentage out there
I would not advise someone to join up as an airman only to get a commission. I joined the ranks because I did not have the academic quals to be an officer and it wasn't until I got to newly promoted SNCO that I went for commision as I had changed in the intervening 16 years and was capable of more (well i thought so LOL). The trade and external qualifications I had gained in that time meant I was more than academically qualified but I still had a lot to learn about true academic studies (and I still am learning).
Average 10-20% of people on IOT are ex-airman so that gives you an idea of the percentage out there
hootandroar
If you want to fly at any cost then if not successful as a pilot then NCA can be an option but if you are knocked back from a graound branch then consider going for the airman equivalent then make sure you are very sure of the difference and how long it may take to get to a posistion of responsibility.
Agreed. NCA is a viable option as far as aircrew goes; purely because it is different to going through the ranks - if anyone remembers High Best Cold from here, he's done it and is loving it.
I would not advise someone to join up as an airman only to get a commission. I joined the ranks because I did not have the academic quals to be an officer and it wasn't until I got to newly promoted SNCO that I went for commision as I had changed in the intervening 16 years and was capable of more (well i thought so LOL). The trade and external qualifications I had gained in that time meant I was more than academically qualified but I still had a lot to learn about true academic studies (and I still am learning).
Average 10-20% of people on IOT are ex-airman so that gives you an idea of the percentage out there
Average 10-20% of people on IOT are ex-airman so that gives you an idea of the percentage out there
Agreed.
Lady Venom
NCA is a viable option as far as aircrew goes; purely because it is different to going through the ranks - if anyone remembers High Best Cold from here, he's done it and is loving it.
With all due respect, HBCs experience isn't very relevant. Of course he's loving it, because it is all new, challenging and well paid. What you need to be researching if you are considering an NCA career is what people on their third or fourth tour feel about it. Once the newness and initial challenge has worn off and they have decent expereince levels, are they still being challenged, are they still learning new skills, or are opportunities limited, are they looking at doing the same old same old for the next 12 years?
Personally, I want a commission. I have been a supervisor for 3/4 years now, and I love responsibility/leading a team etc etc. I can't think of taking a step back now. Also, I have a degree so, as threeportdrift says, I'm going for the highest entry level i can go for. If I don't pass OASC, I have options in my mind, the last being NCA, not that it's a bad thing, I just want a commission more.
Fields
Do they actually ask you this? Or is it only for people going for WSO? 
They could quite reasonably ask if you were going for Pilot or WSO - Would you accept WSOp if you failed to get a commission? If you were going for any other branch they could equally well ask - If you failed to be offered a commission, would you consider joining the ranks?
It's just another way of exploring whether you know the difference between a commission and not being commissioned. It's going to make you verbalise why you want a commission, how you view your career path, your ambitions etc It just adds variety to the interviewers day!
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