[Hype en Ecosse]

(Original post by Inverse)
Well, there's a huge double standard involved because I've never heard (or can't remember) of someone calling religious preachers, or people that believe that another human will eternally burn in some mythical hell being called "cocks" in my entire life.

Then you haven't been on this thread long enough.

[Inverse]

(Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
Then you haven't been on this thread long enough.

Looks like I'll have to read every single page.

[Hype en Ecosse]

(Original post by Inverse)
Looks like I'll have to read every single page.

Yep.

Every post on r/Atheism, too!

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Dinnes)
What does everyone think of Dawkins generally?

Well.

He's great at writing pop science books and pop atheism books.
He has arguments that are not easy to disagree with.
But in terms of the overall goal of having a non-religious society, I don't think he's a good figurehead.

[chickenonsteroids]

(Original post by Dinnes)
What does everyone think of Dawkins generally?

Dawkins should stick to biology imo. He's a good speaker but too offensive to open up discussion to general religious people since they just take it as an attack on their religion rather than a criticism of their argument.

But it annoys me more when I see atheists just praise Dawkins like he's a god. imo you're better off researching more into the arguments rather than always referring to one person.

Hitchens on the other hand I prefer just because he was more charismatic. Though, he doesn't really argue against the existence of god, rather the concept of god and the problems that religion bring to society.

I think, argument wise, the best (I've read... which isn't much) is probably Quentin Smith and John Mackie (who argues against objective morality). Mainly because I prefer written arguments over actual debates because a lot of what is said in formal debates (like Harris v Craig or Hitchens v d'Souza) is based on presentation it seems. It's why a lot of atheists seem to underestimate Craig and Craig is better at 'debating' because he's been doing them for years. Watch some of the debates and you'll see why Craig tends to do better based on presentation. Argument wise, I don't think that the new atheists do as well as they could.

I'd like to read more but I don't have the time unfortunately. Apologies for going off on a tangent.

[Plato's Trousers]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
But in terms of the overall goal of having a non-religious society, I don't think he's a good figurehead.

(Original post by chickenonsteroids)
Dawkins should stick to biology imo. He's a good speaker but too offensive to open up discussion to general religious people since they just take it as an attack on their religion rather than a criticism of their argument.

But it annoys me more when I see atheists just praise Dawkins like he's a god. imo you're better off researching more into the arguments rather than always referring to one person.

Hitchens on the other hand I prefer just because he was more charismatic. Though, he doesn't really argue against the existence of god, rather the concept of god and the problems that religion bring to society.

+rep


Yes, hard to disagree there. Dawkins is just too strident for most people. Hitchens was wonderful. Such a sad loss

[jam277]

(Original post by BambieWambie)
I think Hitchens was a bit more of a cock than Dawkins. I come from a very relgious background too. I'm too scared to tell my dad im atheist

I'm the same. Also with both dawkins and hitchens they act like they're better than religious people, I think it's dawkins sort of poshness that pisses me off.

(Original post by Dinnes)
Also, be brave with your dad - if he refuses to accommodate your beliefs (or in this case lack of) then he's doing something wrong as a father, but that's his issue and you shouldn't be afraid of what you believe because of it

It's not that simple, my mother is very unaccommodating of other beliefs, she still lives in the 19th century and anything other than her way is unacceptable, let alone if I said I'm an atheist, that will cause more crap than coming out.

It's like saying you're gay to a family of homophobes.

[Aoide]

jam277-You should aim to let your parents know your views, but it is understandable not to sacrifice yourself for it. I suggest doing it when you know that you can fuction without them and the relaionship is on an even level, that way if they do take it badly you have reduced your loss. and they will have to accept your view rather than control you.

I like how Dawkins discusses religion as he is fine with being straight to the point and doesn't bend to what theists want to hear but I find him hard to listen to (or read) due to not being the most charismtic person.

[chickenonsteroids]

(Original post by Aoide)
jam277-You should aim to let your parents know your views, but it is understandable not to sacrifice yourself for it. I suggest doing it when you know that you can fuction without them and the relaionship is on an even level, that way if they do take it badly you have reduced your loss. and they will have to accept your view rather than control you.

I disagree here. Unless it's really bugging him and he really feels the need to tell his parents - what's the point? If he's running the risk of being shunned from his family then telling them that he's an atheist is silly. If him keeping his atheism quiet changes nothing (like his parents aren't insulting atheists etc) then why does he need to say? Sometimes it just gets known that he doesn't care for religion. There's nothing special about being an atheist.

But that's just me. I haven't told my parents that I'm not religious and to be honest, it hasn't changed anything. If anything, it just gives me more time to think about my views without all the added drama. I'm pretty sure my mum would take me to church more if I told her I was an atheist.

[Aoide]

Is it a good relationship that Jam277 is too afraid to have his own opinion? Being honest may seem like a lot of hastle but continualing hiding your views from your parents just shows that you have a very unhealthy relationship (especially once you no longer live with/ are dependant on them). While it understandable that your views will affect how they percieve you that needs to go both ways.

[TimmonaPortella]

(Original post by Plato's Trousers)
+rep


Yes, hard to disagree there. Dawkins is just too strident for most people. Hitchens was wonderful. Such a sad loss

Hitch was at least as strident as dawkins is.



edit: and he argued quite a lot about the logic of god

[Diety]

(Original post by BambieWambie)
Has anyone read The God Delusion? thoughts?

I read it a while ago and I thought it was generally pretty good, although I know another atheist who thought it was terrible, but he's a little weird, spiritual, neo-Buddhist kinda thing, so I wouldn't pay much attention. As for me, I thought the bits he did on science were top notch, or there abouts (there are some things I would have added), I particularly enjoyed his disection of religion in terms of evolutionary psychology, although if you're really into that, Daniel Dennett does it better in Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomanon. His bit on multiverse theory was also fascinating.
I do feel he let the side down a bit on the philosophy front, and being a philosophy student maybe I'm biased to think this is important. It just seemed to me that a better book would have thrown in some of the philosophical arguments that there are against the existance of God. Probably the only philosophical issue he did tackle was the ontological argument, which he did with cringe worthy naivety. It is clear he had read very little on the subject, and more philosophically literate Christian apologists, like the infamous William Lane Craig, have jumped on this weakness
Finally, I also think he could have done something on the historical reliability (or lack of) of the various accounts of the life of Jesus. I do however acknowledge that the reason for all this being missing is because his expertise is in science and that is what he is playing too, but that being the case, the book should not have been acclaimed as iot was, as if it were the atheist bible; it should just be one book among amny on an atheist's bookshelf

(Original post by Dinnes)
What does everyone think of Dawkins generally?

I want him to tuck me in at night

(Original post by BambieWambie)
I think Hitchens was a bit more of a cock than Dawkins. I come from a very relgious background too. I'm too scared to tell my dad im atheist

WOW! Hold it there buddy, you are talking about a legend there! His confrontational nature was what made him great; he didn't pull punches, he said it how it is, the man was closer to a God than Jesus

[Dandaman1]

I pretty decent video about secularism I thought I'd share, by YouTube user QualiaSoup

[Aoide]

I just watched the morality 3 video by the same user, definately worth watching if you are interested in morality without god.

[BambieWambie]

@Diety

Hitchens is great when he gives speeches, but when in debate he can come accross as a bit childish. Especially when he interrupts the other speaker.

[Id and Ego seek]

(Original post by BambieWambie)
@Diety

Hitchens is great when he gives speeches, but when in debate he can come accross as a bit childish. Especially when he interrupts the other speaker.

His sense of humour was a great niché he applied to debating; not only did he have great points, he could present them intellectually, companionably, and lightheartedly. I'd rather have an enthusiastic entertainer than a lackadaisical one. And all of the horsemen have this trait

[Petro_99]

i left religeon and became an athesist quite recently!!

what are the best books to read on? (ive just began to read the God delusion)

[Aoide]

Personally i've found that watching debates and discussions on youtube is a good way of finding atheist ideas. They are often much more concise.

[Petro_99]

reli? who should i search?

[Plato's Trousers]

(Original post by Petro_99)
i left religeon and became an athesist quite recently!!

what are the best books to read on? (ive just began to read the God delusion)

Good for you! Pleased to hear it.