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The German people were partly responsible for the Holocaust.

Reply 20

UGeNe

14

It's easier to close your eyes than to make a pair of fists and use them.

Reply 21

UGeNe

14

JAKstriked

Who was responsible if it wasn't the German people?

The Russians.

They suuuuuure were

Academics may understand the need for making debates such as these, but I'm 100% certain that if you conducted a survey in a town centre and asked "who's responsible for the holocaust?" you would repeatedly get the answer "Germans .... Hitler and the Nazis". To the average person it's all the same thing.

Reply 24

Kickflip

12

Aren't the Jews partly responsible, a little bit? The Germans didn't kick out the Chinese after all. They would have you believe the Nazis picked on the weakest, most humble people they could find. What's the other side of the story?

The Jews have been kicked out of countries in Europe time and again over the centuries, the holcaust was just the 5th time they had been banished from Germany. Here is a partial list of all the countries from which the Jews have been forced out of, sometimes on numerous occasions, over the last thousand years

Professor Jesse H. Holmes, writing in, “The American Hebrew,” stated the following with regard to these expulsions of Jews:

“It can hardly be an accident that antagonism directed against the Jews is to be found pretty much everywhere in the world where Jews and non-Jews are associated. And as the Jews are the common element of the situation it would seem probable, on the face of it, that the cause will be found in them, rather than in the widely varying groups which feel this antagonism.”

A-S

Africa
1147 - 1212
1790, 1792

Arabia
624 - 628

Austria
1298 - 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period
1420

America
1654
1862

Babylon
586 BC
468, 470

Baveria
1551

Belgium
1370

Chekoslovakia
1745

Denmark
0 - 1700

Egypt
1571 BC
38BC
3BC
66AD

England
1130
1189
1290 - 1655 - Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.

Ethiopia
1950's
1985, 1992

France
561
1182
1242
1306 - 100,000 Jews are exiled from France
1394 - Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
1540
1682

Germany
1012
1146-1147
1510
1614
1933 - 1945

Holland
1582 - Jews were expelled.

Hungary
1360
1582
1717 - 1789

Italy
1492
1540 - 1593 - Jews were exiled.
1846 - 1878

Iraq
1969

Jerusalem
70
324

Libya
1948

Lithuania
1495

Mongolia
1919

Netherlands
1444

Norway
1814

poland
1453
1795
1882
1938 - 1946

Portugal
1498 - 20,000 Jews were banished from Portugal.

Prussia
1510

Rome
315
379

Russia
1100
1772 - 1862
1881
1991

Saxony
1349

Slovakia
1380
1744

Spain
612 - 621
694
1321
1391
1492

Sweden
0 - 1792

In his book, “L’antisémitisme son histoire et ses causes,” published in 1894, noted Jewish author, Bernard Lazare, expressed these sentiments:

“If this hostility, even aversion, had only been shown towards the Jews at one period and in one country, it would be easy to unravel the limited causes of this anger, but this race has been on the contrary an object of hatred to all the peoples among whom it has established itself. It must be therefore, since the enemies of the Jews belonged to the most diverse races, since they lived in countries very distant from each other, since they were ruled by very different laws, governed by opposite principles, since they had neither the same morals, nor the same customs, since they were animated by unlike dispositions which did not permit them to judge of anything in the same way, it must be therefore that the general cause of anti-Semitism has always resided in Israel itself and not in those who have fought against Israel.”

This is some of the information about the holocaust that you "Don't hear often".

Reply 25

Tantrumfly

Mr_Steve_Stifler

After finishing A2 History it has helped me to come to an apt conclusion. Arguing against this would be illogical and my studies suggest to me that the German people were responsible for the Holocaust.

The only reason the Allies didn't want to place the blame to them overtly was because it would have been totally counter productive (Stalin & feeling of more resentment by Germans & we needed an economically strong Germany to revitalise trade).

Do you agree?

Let me start, by telling you that I am Jewish. I lost extended family in the holocaust. You cannot blame every german for what happened in the holocaust. I do however believe that when youknow something terrible is happening and remain silent, you are as guilty as the person committing the atrocity.

I am also South African. I grew up during Apartheid. My mother worked throughout my childhood and I was effectively raised by a black woman, whom I love dearly and remain attached to as though she is a family member.

When I was sixteen I realised something was horribly wrong. her two year old child was not allowed to live with her in her quarters past 2 years and six months. That was the law. Separating a child from it's mother was criminal, even though it was the law. I began to ask questions and realised that what was legal was not neccessarily moral. I spoke out for the first time when I realised this. I was in high school and got suspended. I then decided I had to do something. I found every loophole to help keep this child with his mother as long as possible.
I learned that confronting the system head on would mean a victory 1-0 for the system, so I found underhand ways to beat the system and very much took on a guerilla type attitude. I helped her use other laws to override the laws that were crippling her human rights. It was a steep learning curve.

Just because you think people were silent, does not neccessarily mean they were. There are thousands of stories of germans risking their and their families lives to save Jews, Jehovah's witnesses, disabled people and people of colour.

Also many people were isolated from what was happenning and truly did not know. In both germany and in South Africa. I did not know that black people were being systematically gunned down for protesting in the townships, until one day my brother came home from his compulsory military service and wept for two days. Our media was heavily censored. What the world saw on TV and read in their papers was kept from the average white South African.

I knew only as a teenager because my brother "talked". Is ignorance a defence? I think not. It was easy not to look further into the laws that openly suppressed black people. If more people looked a little further than their suburban gardens and actually saw the consequences of the laws that kept black families apart, paid black people less, deprived black people of educatinal and employment opportunity, South Africa would have been better off today.

Just as South Africa will continue to suffer the echoes of her past, so will Germany. It is very important to forgive, but equally important not to forget. The lesson I have learnt is that if the root of a situation is unfair, there are far greater hidden complexities and to just ignore them is the same as leaving someone to drown, just because you cannot swim. There is always a way to find a lifeboat!

I carry the guilt , that I may have been able to do more, but I do know that when opportunity arose, I used it to beat the system. I know that many Germans are/were in the same situation.

Proudly Jewish, Proudly South African, The forgiving and the Forgiven.

Reply 26

MancStudent098

13

The problem I believe is that German society outside the major cities was very conservative, catholic and at the end of the day racist and homophobic. I'm sure the majority wouldn't have openly condoned the concentration camps, but they would certainly have been content to believe that Gays, Jews and Gypsies were simply being dealt with in some unspecified way. The idea that the majority were either brainwashed, or completely unaware is I'm afraid rubbish. Hitler managed to tap into existing prejudices that, let's be honest, were present in other European countries at the time. Just look at Vichy France.

Reply 27

UniOfLife

12

To the OP - Yes they were. And we all (in the UK and US) were partly responsible for the invasion of Iraq.

Reply 28

ForeverIsMyName

15

Kickflip

Aren't the Jews partly responsible, a little bit?

Explain, what exactly did the Jews do wrong? All I can see is you feebly attempting to find justification for genocide. That's pretty disgusting, don't you think? I can blame gypsies for certain problems, I don't think that warrants any kind of collective punishment. Do you believe in the concept of collective punishment?

Reply 29

moonstruck

Craig_D

"Germans .... Hitler and the Nazis". To the average person it's all the same thing.

I'm sorry but I have to give the average person a bit more credit. Maybe I'm just really optimistic, but I will not believe that a majority would say: German = Nazi = Hitler.

OP - do you mean that the German people were partly responsible for the Holocaust, or are you saying that they were responsible? I think it makes a huge difference. I would absolutely agree on the first statement but I also think caution is advisable. It is very easy to judge from our point of view - without differentiating and looking at the context. Genocide is unexcusable, but as a matter of fact - not every German at that time knew about what was happening in those camps (it doesn't matter if it was a minority). Therefore it is in my opinion not justified to say the German people were generally responsible for the Holocaust.

Reply 30

Unrepentant

I did a question on who was to blame for the Holocaust and also gave them part of the blame. Obviously there were people who did try to help such as Goring's brother Albert, Oscar Schwindler etc, but the fact that many stood behind the regime, and that when the first communists were sent to Dachau camp hundreds of curious onlookers gather to watch them enter, shows that people did know about the Holocaust, but didn't speak out against it. Obviously with hindsight it is easy to point faults out and say oh we wouldn't have let that happen, but the nature of the regime and the extent of propaganda and the harsh punishments for those who spoke out against the regime prevented widespread opposition from occuring.

Its a difficult question to answer as there are so many interpretations, it will always be subjective. Also the idea that Anti-Semitism was nothing new, etc all comes into play.

Yes people have to carry the guilt of crimes committed under the German name, but you cannot discount the many people who hid Jews and tried their best to save many from the camps...

Reply 31

emmie19

12

Mr_Steve_Stifler

After finishing A2 History it has helped me to come to an apt conclusion. Arguing against this would be illogical and my studies suggest to me that the German people were responsible for the Holocaust.

The only reason the Allies didn't want to place the blame to them overtly was because it would have been totally counter productive (Stalin & feeling of more resentment by Germans & we needed an economically strong Germany to revitalise trade).

Do you agree?

I disagree.. the Churches such as the Catholic Church refused to help the Jews... they are partly responsible... I would also recommend you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

It shows no matter what culture, everyone mostly reacts the same way to obenience... mainly yes.

And Jews have been persecuted for centuries (e.g. in 19th century Russia), I blame the Jesus thing =P

Reply 32

emmie19

12

Unrepentant

I did a question on who was to blame for the Holocaust and also gave them part of the blame. Obviously there were people who did try to help such as Goring's brother Albert, Oscar Schwindler etc, but the fact that many stood behind the regime, and that when the first communists were sent to Dachau camp hundreds of curious onlookers gather to watch them enter, shows that people did know about the Holocaust, but didn't speak out against it. Obviously with hindsight it is easy to point faults out and say oh we wouldn't have let that happen, but the nature of the regime and the extent of propaganda and the harsh punishments for those who spoke out against the regime prevented widespread opposition from occuring.

Its a difficult question to answer as there are so many interpretations, it will always be subjective. Also the idea that Anti-Semitism was nothing new, etc all comes into play.

Yes people have to carry the guilt of crimes committed under the German name, but you cannot discount the many people who hid Jews and tried their best to save many from the camps...

True, it was over 50 years ago... shouldn't we forgive Germany, not blame them totally and move on?

Reply 33

moonstruck

Unrepentant

I did a question on who was to blame for the Holocaust and also gave them part of the blame. Obviously there were people who did try to help such as Goring's brother Albert, Oscar Schindler etc, but the fact that many stood behind the regime, and that when the first communists were sent to Dachau camp hundreds of curious onlookers gather to watch them enter, shows that people did know about the Holocaust, but didn't speak out against it. Obviously with hindsight it is easy to point faults out and say oh we wouldn't have let that happen, but the nature of the regime and the extent of propaganda and the harsh punishments for those who spoke out against the regime prevented widespread opposition from occuring.

Its a difficult question to answer as there are so many interpretations, it will always be subjective. Also the idea that Anti-Semitism was nothing new, etc all comes into play.

Yes people have to carry the guilt of crimes committed under the German name, but you cannot discount the many people who hid Jews and tried their best to save many from the camps...

I think you're right. I wouldn't bet on (all) people knowing what was going to happen to the communists etc. when they were first deported to camps though. A lot of them thought it was a kind of work camp/prison - The Nazis didn't announce: 'we're killing them now'. There was even a propaganda video about this one camp, Theresienstadt, were all the inmates play football games and live their life in comfort. Again, I'm not saying that there weren't people who knew and remained inactive.

voila! found it - the video about Theresienstadt. Of course it's all make believe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-9x-8ys7t0&feature=related

Reply 34

Saff123

Of course they were. However we forget an important lesson if we arrogantly come to believe that anti-semitism like any other form of discrimination is or was a particularly German phenomenon. Germany had the misfortune of being caught up in a series of historical events which produced the political culture that lead fascism to blossom and dominate.

People everywhere must remain vigilant of political extremes which seek to divide us. The US, the UK, is as much at risk from the rise of violent extremism as anywhere; we can't simply believe it could never happen here, remember Germany was the most social and technologically advanced state on earth, yet it happened there.

Remember jews faced "solutions" across Europe from Britain, to France, Portugal, Russia etc etc Germany was just the last in a long line.

Reply 35

StandardStudent

1

It never ceases to amaze me how this topic sparks such a great mix of enthusiasm and controversy. To cut the story short - they were partly responsible because they voted Hitler in (supporting his extreme ideologies, and everything that went along with this leading up the the Wansee Conference). They were far from complete victims..

Reply 36

StandardStudent

1

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' - Edmund Burke.

Pretty much sums up the whole debate.

The German people were partly responsible for the Holocaust.

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