I&#x27;ve just found out my great granduncles fought in the black &amp; tan war!!!!

bansheeee*

yes but they are all mainly english descendants ,so doesn't really count.

It counts, they are part of northern Ireland, they live there, they were raised there, so of course their vote counts just as much as yours.

Reply 22

My family are irish catholics from Wexford but I would be disgusted if they had fought even for the greater good of Ireland.

The IRA WERE terrorists, they killed people did they not for their own cause?

Reply 23

OP

letsallpaintthetownred

My family are irish catholics from Wexford but I would be disgusted if they had fought even for the greater good of Ireland.

The IRA WERE terrorists, they killed people did they not for their own cause?

most Irish people in 1917 ireland fought against the English who were killing irish people and starving them of food in the west of ireland,they were hardly just going to sit back and allow others to be killed by the british officers.

Reply 24

Economic Historian 1

zippyRN

yet another person who supports the glorification of terrorism , fenian terroism is just as dangerous as islamist , or have you forgotten the thousands killed and injured by fenian terrorists

I don't support any of that ****, i dont even know who they are :s-smilie:

Reply 25

bansheeee*

i mean that ,Obviously english people and descendants of English are going to want to remain part of Britian,so how does that decide whether Ireland should be united ornot.

.. So you're saying that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland are not allowed a say in their system of governance?

bansheeee*

most Irish people in 1917 ireland fought against the English who were killing irish people and starving them of food in the west of ireland,they were hardly just going to sit back and allow others to be killed by the british officers.

Terrorism is a method. It doesn't matter what happened before it or after it. It's still terrorism.

Reply 26

OP

Folderol

Terrorism is a method. It doesn't matter what happened before it or after it. It's still terrorism.

And the British officers wern;t terrorists - by killing the irish people on the boats who tried to flee to america? It's not terrorism defending your own country from intruders.

Reply 27

bansheeee*

most Irish people in 1917 ireland fought against the English who were killing irish people and starving them of food in the west of ireland,they were hardly just going to sit back and allow others to be killed by the british officers.

"Most" where is the validity of your argument, where are the statistics that can back up your theories?

My family are from Wexford, I'm catholic but I think that the arrival of the protestants brought great change and progress. Everyone thought Ireland was "backwards" before they arrived.

So what the English and the Irish killed each other? BOTH were inexcusable so don't pretend that the Irish were persecuted martyrs.

I think that you believe the English were over there purely to massacre the irish, no they were not.

Reply 28

OP

letsallpaintthetownred

So what the English and the Irish killed each other? BOTH were inexcusable so don't pretend that the Irish were persecuted martyrs.

I don't think so ,and I don't think you know Irish history very well if you think that. What right had the English officers in a town in the west of Ireland ,walking into homes and shooting the homeowners ,or killing people for speaking their own language.

Reply 29

bansheeee*

And the British officers wern;t terrorists - by killing the irish people on the boats who tried to flee to america? It's not terrorism defending your own country from intruders.

Stop deviating, we aren't talking about the British. The IRA employed terrorism. It is method. The fact that terrorism may or may not have been employed against them does nothing to the fact that what they did was terrorism. Defending your country isn't necessarily terrorism. But like I've said, it's methods which you use to do something which make it terrorism.

Reply 30

OP

Folderol

Stop deviating, we aren't talking about the British. The IRA employed terrorism. It is method. The fact that terrorism may or may not have been employed against them does nothing to the fact that what they did was terrorism. Defending your country isn't necessarily terrorism. But like I've said, it's methods which you use to do something which make it terrorism.

There is a BIG difference between the 'Old' Ira back then , and the IRA now -you obviously don't know history very well if you think they are compareable. Micheal Collins was by no means a terrorist.

Reply 31

TableChair

1

That's interesting, because I was just researching my family history and I discovered that you're the most annoying person on TSR.

Reply 32

bansheeee*

There is a BIG difference between the 'Old' Ira back then , and the IRA now -you obviously don't know history very well if you think they are compareable.

I meant the old IRA, read the context we were talking in, you loon. I even used the past tense. Not to mention that were talking about terrorism in the past. Weak weak debating, you've pretty much abandoned your point and starting debating useless semantics - even though it's clear what I meant. And the fact that you are accusing a bunch of people of not knowing history very well without addressing their points makes you even weaker. Nice playing, though.

Reply 33

bansheeee*

I don't think so ,and I don't think you know Irish history very well if you think that. What right had the English officers in a town in the west of Ireland ,walking into homes and shooting the homeowners ,or killing people for speaking their own language.

Yes I'm sure that your generalisations are true for the whole of Ireland :confused:

Who cares if they had a right to invade, they did. That's the way the world worked, they were more powerful.

Tbh it has nothing to do with you what your distant relatives did or suffered.
And it's people like you who act as though they are personally hurt by the past that prevent old grudges from healing.

And guess what. Are you completely ignoring the fact that the Irish killed each other in their thoussands for being of a different religion to each other?

So, get back to your point, you think Ireland should be reunited just because people died trying to do this 90 years ago. Someone else has already deconstructed this argument I won't bother.

Aha I;ve never had a debate on TSR before :smile:

it's fun.

Reply 34

OP

Folderol

I meant the old IRA, read the context we were talking in, you loon. I even used the past tense. Not to mention that were talking about terrorism in the past. Weak weak debating, you've pretty much abandoned your point and starting debating useless semantics - even though it's clear what I meant. And the fact that you are accusing a bunch of people of not knowing history very well without addressing their points makes you even weaker. Nice playing, though.

the old IRA were NOT terrorists, how were they terrorists? The only terrorists in 1917 were the British officers.

Reply 35

MancStudent098

13

bansheeee*

...I found a history book ''south mayo'' ,and my great grand uncles fought in 1917 against the black and tans ,they fought with the old Ira for a united Ireland ... so why have people just given up on having a united Ireland ,after all these people died fighting for a united Ireland in 1917, and now it's like people have given up or don't care//.? which would mean they died for nothing

History fail.

Reply 36

Folderol

I meant the old IRA, read the context we were talking in, you loon. I even used the past tense. Weak weak debating, you've pretty much abandoned your point and starting debating useless semantics - even though it's clear what I meant. And the fact that you are accusing a bunch of people of not knowing history very well without addressing their points makes you even weaker. Nice playing, though.

Agreed, get back to your point about the reunification of Ireland please.
If you were winning this debate you would deconstruct everyone elses points, highlighting their weaknesses to support your argument.
Get back to topic and don't make generalisations.

Reply 37

George Bernard Shaw

Big whoop, most of us in Munster/Connaucht will have a few relatives who fought in that war, which was for an Independent Irish nation not necessarily a united Ireland... 4/5 years later most of our relatives were killing each other in the civil war. Doesn't sound so glorious now does it?

At the end of the day this is all ancient history. Yes the IRA could be called terrorists, or at least used guerilla tactics, but was it only in responce to British attrocities or repression? All questions that have been talked about a million time and somehow, even between our lovely mix of fully informed and bi partisan posters, I don't think its going to be answered in this tread.

On the Northern Ireland question: The majority of the nation want to be part of the UK. I believe in democracy. Gerrymandering and the like is now history. It should remain a part of the UK. However if there came a day where more then 50% of the population would vote to join the Republic and more then 50% of the people of the Republic would vote for that union then it should happen.

Oh btw OP before you accuse me of being an anglophile I'm a fluent Irish speaker and am quite proud of being Irish... but that doesn;t mean that I have to be an ignorant secratarian.

Reply 38

bansheeee*

the old IRA were NOT terrorists, how were they terrorists? The only terrorists in 1917 were the British officers.

Please go back and read what I've written. I'll say it once again: it's a method. The bearing of the definition has nothing to do what may have happened in the past.

Edited because I don't want to be too mean :getmecoat:

Reply 39

OP