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Post on TSR and win a prize! Find out more... 10-04-2014
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    (Original post by andyyy)
    Painkillers are only "comfort" medicine if you're not in a lot of pain. The sad truth is that until a few years ago medical research was extremely dodgy and many drugs used tested not only on animals, but also on unsuspecting human beings. Animal testing only became mandatory in the 60s after the Thalidomide disaster. Thalidomide was a drug meant to treat morning sickness (among other things) and it wasn't tested on animals, it just went straight to being tested on and sold to pregnant women - most of which didn't know that the drug could be dangerous. Unfortunately, it turned out that the drug was extremely dangerous and thousands of children were born with life-threatening birth defects - most of them died shortly after birth.

    What we should replace animal testing with is an important questions that everybody who is opposed to animal testing has to answer.
    It was tested on small animals like rats but it had a different effect on them than it did on humans. That case tends to be used in opposition to animal testing so it's strange you've brought it up here.
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    (Original post by andyyy)
    Painkillers are only "comfort" medicine if you're not in a lot of pain.

    Oh I was thinking of past experience hence the inverted commas, which was a minor injury, when I had to wear a sling with a suspected broken scaphoid. The doctors looked puzzled as to why I never understood what they meant by a splint, and I was thinking of chemistry labs. :rolleyes:

    The animal research issue is contentious so I just hope I never have to seek medical help.
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    (Original post by Wheek)
    Thank you for your replies.

    I had not realised that there were veggie capsules I could use to replace the normal ones with, I'll have to have a look into those.

    Its nice to find people who understand that taking meds containing animal products bothers me - most people I have mentioned it to have gone along the 'does it really matter as its only a little bit' lines
    That worries me, I hope I'll remember to ask the doctor next time I have to get a prescription for something (which hopefully will be a long time away, or never!).

    Sorry to change the subject, but I got some vegetarian student cookbooks. One of them recommended oyster sauce. Not vegetarian oyster sauce, but oyster. Another one said I should use Worcester sauce which contains anchovies. Not vegetarian version (if there is one) but the normal stuff. Anyone else experienced this? I'm willing to list the offending books if people want. Shame though, I gave them both negative reviews on Amazon but 99% of the recipes were gorgeous.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Medicine is the most problematic area for ourselves. For "comfort" medicine like painkillers, I refuse. I do try and find out which medicines are vegan friendly since it would be hypocritical to condemn animal testing whilst failing to vet possible medicines that may well be experimented on animals. It's impossible for vegans to live completely vegan unless they set up their own country. Some vegans abstain from eating products that contain palm oil because, even if the palm is from sustainable sourcing, it nevertheless contributes to the loss of habitat and deaths of animals in the process. Yet, vegans who take up this view will happily fill their car up with petrol. I imagine plenty of animals die from crude oil waste. Just do what you can.

    I recently thought having a Sky Sports subscription (not that I do) was also counterproductive to vegan ethics, but there you go...
    If you're opposed to animal testing, would you be willing to be artificially given illnesses to see if the drugs work (including cancer)? Would you be willing to be the first living thing to try a medication?

    I'm interested to see what people think the alternative is.
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    (Original post by PhoenixReborn)
    If you're opposed to animal testing, would you be willing to be artificially given illnesses to see if the drugs work (including cancer)? Would you be willing to be the first living thing to try a medication?

    I'm interested to see what people think the alternative is.
    Some are listed here:

    http://www.buav.org/humane-science/a...es-to-animals/

    But one of the most important things missing from that page is that for some diseases, we shouldn't be trying to develop a cure at all. There are lots of diseases that we know how to prevent already, and we shouldn't be forcing animals to suffer to compensate for our failure to implement proper preventative measures.
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    (Original post by PhoenixReborn)
    If you're opposed to animal testing, would you be willing to be artificially given illnesses to see if the drugs work (including cancer)? Would you be willing to be the first living thing to try a medication?

    I'm interested to see what people think the alternative is.

    Depends what the specific disease is. Some I view more worthy than others and I don't see why animals should suffer at the expense when several diseases, either by creation or by the spreading of, are down to irresponsible actions of humans.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    It was tested on small animals like rats but it had a different effect on them than it did on humans. That case tends to be used in opposition to animal testing so it's strange you've brought it up here.
    No, the drug was not tested on animals before to it being given to humans, even a website going on about how the disaster was due to the inefficiency of animal testing admits as much:

    Thalidomide campaigners argue that the thalidomide tragedy is not an example of an animal-tested drug that proved disastrous for humans, but of the dishonesty and sharp practices of the pharmaceutical industry. This view is based upon the fact that the animal tests carried out by the inventor of the drug, the West German pharmaceutical company Chemie Grünenthal, were very superficial and incomplete, and their clinical trials were hastily done and questionable. (3) Also, prior to the introduction of thalidomide Grünenthal did not carry out animal tests specifically to demonstrate teratogenic (malformation causing) effects. (4) There is also no evidence that any of the drug licensees did either.

    (source)

    Some tests on animals carried out afterwards, when the drug had already started to cause serious problems, were inconclusive.

    Oh, most anti-animal testing discourse is a joy to read, it smacks of blatant ableism like nothing else - we, the healthy people, have the right to tell you, the bad, cunning and malicious non-healthy people, what treatment you should get! we all know it's your fault you got sick in the first place anyway! why can't you just be normal and healthy like us?

    The victim blaming tactic approach is topped, however, by what I would call the Nazi strategy to eliminating animal testing - nutters who go on about how we should start testing drugs in prison inmates or uninformed volunteers. Because, ehem, it's time human beings died for the sake of medical research! - but other human beings, obviously, not themselves.
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    (Original post by andyyy)
    The victim blaming tactic approach is topped, however, by what I would call the Nazi strategy to eliminating animal testing - nutters who go on about how we should start testing drugs in prison inmates or uninformed volunteers. Because, ehem, it's time human beings died for the sake of medical research! - but other human beings, obviously, not themselves.
    But if they're 'nutters', surely it's unfair to charge all anti-test campaigners with Nazi tactics and ableism? The site linked to above, listing alternatives to animal testing, nowhere mentions the idea that humans should be tested on against their knowledge or against their will.

    I just think that while animal testing is seen as so totally okay by the scientific communities, the government and the general population, proper funding has no chance of be re-routed into developing less horrible alternatives. That's why I think the presence of animal rights campaigners is important, to remind people that there are moral problems with animal testing that shouldn't just be brushed off.
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    (Original post by andyyy)
    Oh, most anti-animal testing discourse is a joy to read, it smacks of blatant ableism like nothing else - we, the healthy people, have the right to tell you, the bad, cunning and malicious non-healthy people, what treatment you should get! we all know it's your fault you got sick in the first place anyway! why can't you just be normal and healthy like us?

    The victim blaming tactic approach is topped, however, by what I would call the Nazi strategy to eliminating animal testing - nutters who go on about how we should start testing drugs in prison inmates or uninformed volunteers. Because, ehem, it's time human beings died for the sake of medical research! - but other human beings, obviously, not themselves.

    I'd have thought animal testing was more Nazi/Japanese like than anti-animal testing. People suggest human research because it eliminates most, if not all, extrapolation issues with the unscientific methodology of animal research. It is akin to me going to Uganda asking how gays should be punished, and then implement the findings in England.
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    Kinda awkward just turning up in the middle of a serious discussion...but hello. I'm vegan until cake is involved, I don't mind eggs in cake

    Oh c'mon. I've never cooked with eggs or eaten meat, but if I see a nice cake I just can't say no.
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    I'm a veggie and
    Veggie pizzas = yum!

    I also get food quicker on the plane
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    (Original post by blueray)
    I also get food quicker on the plane
    Best part, right there
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    What's the best egg replacement for baking? Becoming vegan is going very well so far, but I still have a soft spot for cakes
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    Hi can I join?
    I'm a vegetarian that doesn't eat meat or fish but I eat cheese and egg etc. (lacto-ovo veggie I believe)
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    (Original post by LostHorizons)
    What's the best egg replacement for baking? Becoming vegan is going very well so far, but I still have a soft spot for cakes
    Shall I send you some recipes for egg-less cake? My friends aunt makes them and they are amazing!
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    (Original post by blueray)
    Shall I send you some recipes for egg-less cake? My friends aunt makes them and they are amazing!
    That'd be great, thanks
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    (Original post by LostHorizons)
    That'd be great, thanks
    Here you go

    http://www.egglesscooking.com/eggles...-cake-recipes/

    Pick which ones you like +1 for complement as well
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    (Original post by LostHorizons)
    What's the best egg replacement for baking? Becoming vegan is going very well so far, but I still have a soft spot for cakes
    I use No Egg powder, good stuff. Mixes 1 tspn with 1 tbsp of soya milk. Most health food shops sell it.
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    I'm vegetarian, I have been since I was 8, I'm 17 now, so I've been it for more of my life than not. I shall be vegeterain to the end! Ahoy.
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    Hello,
    Been a (lacto-ovo) vegetarian for almost 2 years now; aspiring to be a vegan somewhere down the line

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