[the_alba]

(Original post by AndromedaLight)
I do mind when I happen to consume something I thought was vegan, but turns out it had trace amounts of animal products. I don't fry up eggs, and chug glasses of milk. I don't like when I happen to consume trace amounts, but it happens. Unless I were to strictly eat raw, there are going to be trace amounts of both in processed foods. I'm not sure what food labels look like there, but I know the Food and Drug Administration here in America requires to label if foods are , "processed on equipment shared with wheat, soy, dairy, eggs, nuts" etc.

Ah okay, sorry I misunderstood

(Original post by AndromedaLight)
Also, veganism is not the same for everyone. Some are vegan purely for dietary reasons. Some are vegan purely for animal protection reasons. Some are a mix. I've met people that used to LOVE eating meat, but care too much about animals to eat it. I've met people who dislike meat, but choose a vegan lifestyle because it is healthier.

See, I just don't consider dietary vegans as vegans. I'm from the Gary Francione school on most things (not everything, though), and define veganism as an ethical philosophy first and foremost. The actions are just a corrollory of the belief. If someone is a vegan purely for health reasons, that implies they still use animal-testing products / wear leather because they don't care about those things, which I don't think is vegan. I'd also expect that person to go back to consuming animal products at any time, because it's not based on a philosophy, just a preference. Then you get those awful so-called 'ex-vegans' writing in newspapers about how 'veganism' helped them lose weight / ruined their skin / nearly killed them / whatever. It's annoying, because it takes the focus away from the animals and makes the general reader think veganism is just another faddy diet.

(Original post by AndromedaLight)
Personally, I am vegan because I dislike meat (including how people attain meat and what the animals have to go through), the taste, the texture etc. And I'm vegan because dairy doesn't agree with my body.

The original definition of "vegan" was simply someone who doesn't eat meat, dairy or eggs. It wasn't until 7 years later that the definition was extended to mean living/eating without exploiting animals.

Then there's the whole honey matter. Some vegans do not eat honey because technically it's an animal product. Some vegans do eat honey because it's not exploitation, bees make honey regardless of humans harvesting it.

Does this make either preference right or wrong? No. It's simply different.

Oh, vegan discussions are the best. So many opinions, views, thoughts on the matter.

I'm always bemused as to why arguments about veganism so often come down to honey. Maybe that's because I never ate honey before I was vegan anyway, it's too sweet! But to me, it's simple: honey does exploit bees (it is farmed; farmers treat the bees as commodities; if they get diseased, they burn them alive in their hives). So honey isn't vegan.

You're right that the definition of veganism has changed, but I think it's changed for the better. Most vegans I know are doing it for the animals. People doing it for their colons, in my view, aren't vegans, in the same way that an atheist attending a Catholic mass doesn't suddenly make them Christian: they're doing the action, but there's no belief behind it.

[the_alba]

(Original post by bytail)
Out of interest, are animals ever killed purely for the production of products such as leather and gelatine? I always viewed such materials as a by-product of the meat-industry (which is why I don't have a MASSIVE problem with using/eating them, as they'd only be wasted otherwise).

I think it's also interesting to hear veggie/vegan views on hunting. Personally I don't have an issue with animals being culled for population control (although it seems ridiculous that due to our own persecution of larger predators we now have to shoot animals to keep them under control ) and then their fur/bones etc being used, as those materials are once again a by-product which would only be left to rot otherwise. What do others think?

I hate the 'they'd only be wasted' argument! I don't want any animal to have died for something I'm going to enjoy eating, wearing or whatever else. Whether or not it would have been 'wasted', the animal is dead and you're profiting from that fact. That's just kind of grotesque to me. How are we ever going to get animal-free versions of products while there are legions of so-called vegetarians happily consuming gelatine? It sends the message to these companies that what they're doing is okay, and that vegetarians are happy to eat dead animals as long as they don't taste like dead animals.
If something is a by-product of a horrendous industry, I don't see why that makes it any more usable. We wouldn't want a holocaust lampshade (made from the skin of dead prisoners), after all.

Population control is one thing, though I think this gets wrongly used all the time as a excuse for people who just really like killing things. When it comes to game-hunting and the like, it is unjustifiable. The game birds are bred for the purpose of being shot - pheasants aren't native to this country and would die out almost instantly if left alone. Many die before they're old enough to get shot, as they're bad at adapting to the outdoor environment once released from their battery breeding cages at the start of each season. It's horrible. As for fox-hunting, there are kinder ways to control numbers. The point of fox-hunting is that some people love violence, and get pleasure from seeing a fox ripped to bits. Population control, *if needed*, should be taken seriously and not turned into some thrillingly gory sport.

[bytail]

(Original post by the_alba)
I hate the 'they'd only be wasted' argument! I don't want any animal to have died for something I'm going to enjoy eating, wearing or whatever else. Whether or not it would have been 'wasted', the animal is dead and you're profiting from that fact. That's just kind of grotesque to me. How are we ever going to get animal-free versions of products while there are legions of so-called vegetarians happily consuming gelatine? It sends the message to these companies that what they're doing is okay, and that vegetarians are happy to eat dead animals as long as they don't taste like dead animals.
If something is a by-product of a horrendous industry, I don't see why that makes it any more usable. We wouldn't want a holocaust lampshade (made from the skin of dead prisoners), after all.

Population control is one thing, though I think this gets wrongly used all the time as a excuse for people who just really like killing things. When it comes to game-hunting and the like, it is unjustifiable and disgusting. The game birds are bred for the purpose of being shot - pheasants aren't native to this country and would die out almost instantly if left alone. Many die before they're old enough to get shot, as they're bad at adapting to the outdoor environment once released from their battery breeding cages at the start of each season. It's horrible. As for fox-hunting, their are kinder ways to control numbers. The point of fox-hunting is that some people love violence, and get pleasure from seeing a fox ripped to bits. Population control, *if needed*, should be taken seriously and not turned into some thrillingly gory sport.

No, I agree, but realistically it seems to me that people are always going to eat meat, so there will always be some by-product. Would you feel the same if an animal had died of natural causes and its skin/bones etc were used?
Personally I don't find the notion of using human waste "grotesque" - when I'm dead I won't have much use for my body, so I'm not too bothered about what happens to it. The issue is with the method of death, not the use of the remains, imo. I think it's wrong that we purposefully breed animals with the intention of killing them on a mass-scale. If we had to actually go out to hunt and shoot our own food, I'd be a lot more okay with eating it.

I was more referring to deer and rabbits than animals such as pheasant - I'm opposed to breeding non-native animals purely for sport. The way we manage the environment often baffles me; near my grandparents allotment there was a fox population issue, so people were called in to destroy them. Due to the lack of foxes, the rabbit population has boomed, and pest-controllers have now been called in to deal with them as well Surely leaving the foxes to deal with the rabbits would have been a better idea?!

I don't agree with fox-hunting, as it is primarily a sport rather than a form of pest-control. I'm okay with humane methods of population control. It's interesting actually that humans are one of the only species which is rarely culled - if given the choice, would you rather starve or be shot? Die from disease or be euthanized? It's an interesting dilemma.

I'm actually a vegetarian primarily for ethical reasons - you can grow far more energy efficient crops in 100sqm than you can raise cattle, for example. Plus, as I said previously, I disagree with the way we raise animals with the sole intent of eating them, providing them with no opportunity to live a natural life.

[Lainathiel]

(Original post by the_alba)
I hate the 'they'd only be wasted' argument! I don't want any animal to have died for something I'm going to enjoy eating, wearing or whatever else. Whether or not it would have been 'wasted', the animal is dead and you're profiting from that fact.

I totally agree with this. Also, I think that the usage of gelatine by food manufacturers is quite... well, a bit lazy and frugal to be honest. Another gelling agent can be derived from plants, called pectin; the only reason that they do not use it is that it is too expensive. I know that, in some cases, to be economical is better, but in other cases, it just isn't necessary.

[the_alba]

(Original post by Lainathiel)
I totally agree with this. Also, I think that the usage of gelatine by food manufacturers is quite... well, a bit lazy and frugal to be honest. Another gelling agent can be derived from plants, called pectin; the only reason that they do not use it is that it is too expensive. I know that, in some cases, to be economical is better, but in other cases, it just isn't necessary.

Exactly: but if 'vegetarians' go around eating gelatine because they don't want to waste it, then the companies have zero incentive to use a plant-based alternative. If veggies stood up for their principles a bit more and stopped buying products that contain animals, plant-based versions would come to be more available (once companies realised they could be losing money). It's the inconsistency (on the part of the gelatine-eating 'veggie' that baffles me. It just seems like a lazy excuse.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by the_alba)
Exactly: but if 'vegetarians' go around eating gelatine because they don't want to waste it, then the companies have zero incentive to use a plant-based alternative. If veggies stood up for their principles a bit more and stopped buying products that contain animals, plant-based versions would come to be more available (once companies realised they could be losing money). It's the inconsistency (on the part of the gelatine-eating 'veggie' that baffles me. It just seems like a lazy excuse.

If someone eats gelatine they are NOT vegetarian, FACT!


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[miser]

(Original post by the_alba)
I didn't neg you by the way (I've only just returned to TSR after a long break). But the negs *might* have something to do with the phrase 'strict vegetarian', which tends to annoy / amuse vegans in equal measure. I don't think there *is* such a thing as a 'strict vegetarian' - if vegetarians were serious and strict about their consumption of products that cause death to animals, they'd be vegan. No?

No, veganism restricts more than just avoiding products that cause death to animals - milk and honey for example are both restricted in principle, not just the methods that are used for their production today. Also banned is the use of animals in cinema, or the use of animals for any purpose - things that many vegetarians can often have no issue with, no matter how 'strict' their commitment to their cause.

Edit: Sorry I didn't realise the post I was replying to was old.

[the_alba]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
If someone eats gelatine they are NOT vegetarian, FACT!


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

That's what I've been saying the whole time.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by the_alba)
That's what I've been saying the whole time.

I think we should say it everytime a 'veggie' comes in here and says they eat fish sometimes or eat sweets with gelatine but are otherwise veggie, lol

btw i don't think i can do veganism - just too difficult! Going to stick a veggie until I man up to go the full distance!

[the_alba]

(Original post by miser)
No, veganism restricts more than just avoiding products that cause death to animals - milk and honey for example are both restricted in principle, not just the methods that are used for their production today. Also banned is the use of animals in cinema, or the use of animals for any purpose - things that many vegetarians can often have no issue with, no matter how 'strict' their commitment to their cause.

Edit: Sorry I didn't realise the post I was replying to was old.

Yes, I know all these things. I was limiting my discussion do the 'death' aspect, because I found it contradictory that someone would be *really* panicky about eating food in a restaurant that doesn't have veg-only cooking utensils kept seperate from the meat-cooking utensils, and yet has no problem eating dairy and egg products, which directly contribute to billions of deaths a year.

[the_alba]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
I think we should say it everytime a 'veggie' comes in here and says they eat fish sometimes or eat sweets with gelatine but are otherwise veggie, lol

btw i don't think i can do veganism - just too difficult! Going to stick a veggie until I man up to go the full distance!

Meh, it's really not that difficult. Do you live with your parents - i.e., do they have a lot of control over what you eat? If so, I can see how it might be trickier. I doubt my mother would have reacted well if I'd gone vegan as a teenager. But now I have full control over my eating, I see no reason not to be vegan.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by the_alba)
Meh, it's really not that difficult. Do you live with your parents - i.e., do they have a lot of control over what you eat? If so, I can see how it might be trickier. I doubt my mother would have reacted well if I'd gone vegan as a teenager. But now I have full control over my eating, I see no reason not to be vegan.

Yup live with parents and they're not happy about the idea of me having my own milk and cheese in the fridge! Also it'd cause problems when making some of the food we eat! Might put off giving it a go until i move out in a few or so!

[the_alba]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
Yup live with parents and they're not happy about the idea of me having my own milk and cheese in the fridge! Also it'd cause problems when making some of the food we eat! Might put off giving it a go until i move out in a few or so!

Yes I suppose that's fair enough. I'm sure there are teenagers on here who went vegan in spite of their parents, but given that I didn't become vegan until my twenties, I'm in no position to judge. It's great that you're even thinking about these things at all - I was brought up around farms and never questioned our use of animals until I was way older than you.

[Lainathiel]

(Original post by the_alba)
Yes I suppose that's fair enough. I'm sure there are teenagers on here who went vegan in spite of their parents, but given that I didn't become vegan until my twenties, I'm in no position to judge. It's great that you're even thinking about these things at all - I was brought up around farms and never questioned our use of animals until I was way older than you.

Me, for one. I was brought up a vegetarian from birth by my mother, but as soon as I started living with my dad (about the age of 7) he tried to make me eat meat, to which I obstinately refused. Now, in my teens, I find that milk doesn't agree with me, so can't have that either. My family wasn't happy. I've just taken to writing my own shopping list for each week and cooking my own meals; it just saves all the hassle.

(Original post by the_alba)
Exactly: but if 'vegetarians' go around eating gelatine because they don't want to waste it, then the companies have zero incentive to use a plant-based alternative. If veggies stood up for their principles a bit more and stopped buying products that contain animals, plant-based versions would come to be more available (once companies realised they could be losing money). It's the inconsistency (on the part of the gelatine-eating 'veggie' that baffles me. It just seems like a lazy excuse.

It just goes round in a vicous circle. The one that really annoys me is cochineal. Using the leftovers of animals that are killed anyway is one thing - even though I still thoroughly disagree with it - but using insects? Ridiculous: there has to be an alternative.It's like when meat-eaters tell me "Why don't you eat fish? It's not like it's a proper animal like cow or chicken."; they think that an insect isn't classified as a living organism, for some unfathomable reason.

[schizopear]

(Original post by the_alba)
See, I just don't consider dietary vegans as vegans. I'm from the Gary Francione school on most things (not everything, though), and define veganism as an ethical philosophy first and foremost. The actions are just a corrollory of the belief. If someone is a vegan purely for health reasons, that implies they still use animal-testing products / wear leather because they don't care about those things, which I don't think is vegan. I'd also expect that person to go back to consuming animal products at any time, because it's not based on a philosophy, just a preference. Then you get those awful so-called 'ex-vegans' writing in newspapers about how 'veganism' helped them lose weight / ruined their skin / nearly killed them / whatever. It's annoying, because it takes the focus away from the animals and makes the general reader think veganism is just another faddy diet.

i imagine that a lot of people, for simplicity, will refer to themselves as vegan to explain their dietary requirements to other people. it's just easier. if somebody is going to cook for you, in a restaurant or somebody's house or whatever, they need to know about the diet aspect, not your philosophy.

as for vegans not using anything that has been made from or tested on animals etc., that's quite frankly impossible. so how can anyone claim to be a vegan? every single drug has been tested on animals, therefore a vegan cannot take so much as a paracetamol. cattle horn and hoof meal is used as a fertiliser to grow plants so even vegetables are produced using animal products. a vegan can't smoke, drive a car, or even walk on the pavement without using something that has been produced using animal products.

i thought this was the food forum, not the place where people bicker about what vegetarian/vegan label they can wear...

[Lainathiel]

(Original post by schizopear)
i imagine that a lot of people, for simplicity, will refer to themselves as vegan to explain their dietary requirements to other people. it's just easier. if somebody is going to cook for you, in a restaurant or somebody's house or whatever, they need to know about the diet aspect, not your philosophy.

as for vegans not using anything that has been made from or tested on animals etc., that's quite frankly impossible. so how can anyone claim to be a vegan? every single drug has been tested on animals, therefore a vegan cannot take so much as a paracetamol. cattle horn and hoof meal is used as a fertiliser to grow plants so even vegetables are produced using animal products. a vegan can't smoke, drive a car, or even walk on the pavement without using something that has been produced using animal products.

i thought this was the food forum, not the place where people bicker about what vegetarian/vegan label they can wear...

I never realised that that many items involved animal products in some way.

I think, if I were to become vegan - which I do want to do in the future - I would not consume the obvious animal products, nor wear leather/fur. It's very difficult to go further and more complex than that.

I am very sorry, I think that may have been me negging you; I meant to press 'quote'... Sorry; I didn't know I couldn't reverse it. Sorry. New person will go and hide in the corner now.

[the_alba]

(Original post by schizopear)
as for vegans not using anything that has been made from or tested on animals etc., that's quite frankly impossible. so how can anyone claim to be a vegan? every single drug has been tested on animals, therefore a vegan cannot take so much as a paracetamol. cattle horn and hoof meal is used as a fertiliser to grow plants so even vegetables are produced using animal products. a vegan can't smoke, drive a car, or even walk on the pavement without using something that has been produced using animal products.

i thought this was the food forum, not the place where people bicker about what vegetarian/vegan label they can wear...

Vegans can't be perfect in a non-vegan world, no. We can press for alternatives to animal testing, but short of refusing medical treatment when we're sick, we're sometimes forced to make difficult compromises. This isn't some kind of collapse of our ethics: it's a result of living in a world which isn't yet vegan. If in some future dawn animal testing has been replaced by cruelty-free science (cell-based testing, or something else), then those horrible dilemmas will be reduced. And that is worth being vegan for: to try to improve things, not to give up because they're not already perfect.

For me it's a about *reducing, as far as humanly possible* my own interaction with products that exploit animals. I have no time for someone who defends eating a beef burger on the grounds that there are traces of cow in car tyres. They're just trying to let themselves off the hook. There *wouldn't* be cow in car tyres if we weren't already killing them for burgers - the tyres are just a way for farmers to squeeze every last cent out of the wasted inedible parts of the cow.

Veganism is about trying your best, and not using animals just for your own pleasure or convenience. To that end, I use non-tested cosmetics instead of tested ones. If other people made those decisions too, maybe big companies like Proctor and Gamble would wind down their animal testing programs, to win back customers. But as long as people continue not to care, or to think that since all vegans are hypocrites there's no point in making ethical decisions at all, then animals will continue to be tested on. Sorry if you think this is irrelevant in the food forum, but since this thread is for veggies *and* vegans, and veganism isn't just about food, I think it's relevant. This forum helped me a lot in understanding what veganism is and helped me to go vegan by engaging not just with the dietary elements of it.

[rock_climber86]

god i used to work at l'oreal head office. If only i knew what they do to animals before i took up that job! Those evil bastards! So glad i'm no longer there! NEVER again!

Also on the whole ethics front. I'm thinking of becoming a petroleum geophysicist. The people that looks for oil for oil companies. Oil kills lots of animals due to oil spills etc. Is this job incompatible with being a vegetarian/vegan? I'm kinda worried I will be called a hypocrite

[bytail]

(Original post by rock_climber86)
Also on the who ethics front. I'm thinking of becoming a petroleum geophysicist. The people that looks for oil for oil companies. Oil kills lots of animals due to oil spills etc. Is this job incompatible with being a vegetarian/vegan? I'm kinda worried I will be called a hypocrite

It's kind of comparable to a Buddhist becoming a butcher Not ethically correct and incompatible with your beliefs.

[rock_climber86]

(Original post by bytail)
It's kind of comparable to a Buddhist becoming a butcher Not ethically correct and incompatible with your beliefs.

you just ruined my day