I hate the 'they'd only be wasted' argument! I don't want any animal to have died for something I'm going to enjoy eating, wearing or whatever else. Whether or not it would have been 'wasted', the animal is dead and you're profiting from that fact. That's just kind of grotesque to me. How are we ever going to get animal-free versions of products while there are legions of so-called vegetarians happily consuming gelatine? It sends the message to these companies that what they're doing is okay, and that vegetarians are happy to eat dead animals as long as they don't taste like dead animals.
(Original post by bytail)
Out of interest, are animals ever killed purely for the production of products such as leather and gelatine? I always viewed such materials as a by-product of the meat-industry (which is why I don't have a MASSIVE problem with using/eating them, as they'd only be wasted otherwise).
I think it's also interesting to hear veggie/vegan views on hunting. Personally I don't have an issue with animals being culled for population control (although it seems ridiculous that due to our own persecution of larger predators we now have to shoot animals to keep them under control
) and then their fur/bones etc being used, as those materials are once again a by-product which would only be left to rot otherwise. What do others think?
If something is a by-product of a horrendous industry, I don't see why that makes it any more usable. We wouldn't want a holocaust lampshade (made from the skin of dead prisoners), after all.
Population control is one thing, though I think this gets wrongly used all the time as a excuse for people who just really like killing things. When it comes to game-hunting and the like, it is unjustifiable. The game birds are bred for the purpose of being shot - pheasants aren't native to this country and would die out almost instantly if left alone. Many die before they're old enough to get shot, as they're bad at adapting to the outdoor environment once released from their battery breeding cages at the start of each season. It's horrible. As for fox-hunting, there are kinder ways to control numbers. The point of fox-hunting is that some people love violence, and get pleasure from seeing a fox ripped to bits. Population control, *if needed*, should be taken seriously and not turned into some thrillingly gory sport.
Last edited by the_alba; 28-07-2012 at 15:37.
No, veganism restricts more than just avoiding products that cause death to animals - milk and honey for example are both restricted in principle, not just the methods that are used for their production today. Also banned is the use of animals in cinema, or the use of animals for any purpose - things that many vegetarians can often have no issue with, no matter how 'strict' their commitment to their cause.
(Original post by the_alba)
I didn't neg you by the way (I've only just returned to TSR after a long break). But the negs *might* have something to do with the phrase 'strict vegetarian', which tends to annoy / amuse vegans in equal measure. I don't think there *is* such a thing as a 'strict vegetarian' - if vegetarians were serious and strict about their consumption of products that cause death to animals, they'd be vegan. No?
Edit: Sorry I didn't realise the post I was replying to was old.
Last edited by miser; 28-07-2012 at 22:50.
Vegans can't be perfect in a non-vegan world, no. We can press for alternatives to animal testing, but short of refusing medical treatment when we're sick, we're sometimes forced to make difficult compromises. This isn't some kind of collapse of our ethics: it's a result of living in a world which isn't yet vegan. If in some future dawn animal testing has been replaced by cruelty-free science (cell-based testing, or something else), then those horrible dilemmas will be reduced. And that is worth being vegan for: to try to improve things, not to give up because they're not already perfect.
(Original post by schizopear)
as for vegans not using anything that has been made from or tested on animals etc., that's quite frankly impossible. so how can anyone
claim to be a vegan? every single drug has been tested on animals, therefore a vegan cannot take so much as a paracetamol. cattle horn and hoof meal is used as a fertiliser to grow plants so even vegetables are produced using animal products. a vegan can't smoke, drive a car, or even walk on the pavement without using something that has been produced using animal products.
i thought this was the food forum, not the place where people bicker about what vegetarian/vegan label they can wear...
For me it's a about *reducing, as far as humanly possible* my own interaction with products that exploit animals. I have no time for someone who defends eating a beef burger on the grounds that there are traces of cow in car tyres. They're just trying to let themselves off the hook. There *wouldn't* be cow in car tyres if we weren't already killing them for burgers - the tyres are just a way for farmers to squeeze every last cent out of the wasted inedible parts of the cow.
Veganism is about trying your best, and not using animals just for your own pleasure or convenience. To that end, I use non-tested cosmetics instead of tested ones. If other people made those decisions too, maybe big companies like Proctor and Gamble would wind down their animal testing programs, to win back customers. But as long as people continue not to care, or to think that since all vegans are hypocrites there's no point in making ethical decisions at all, then animals will continue to be tested on. Sorry if you think this is irrelevant in the food forum, but since this thread is for veggies *and* vegans, and veganism isn't just about food, I think it's relevant. This forum helped me a lot in understanding what veganism is and helped me to go vegan by engaging not just with the dietary elements of it.
Last edited by the_alba; 29-07-2012 at 12:10.
god i used to work at l'oreal head office. If only i knew what they do to animals before i took up that job! Those evil bastards! So glad i'm no longer there! NEVER again!
Also on the whole ethics front. I'm thinking of becoming a petroleum geophysicist. The people that looks for oil for oil companies. Oil kills lots of animals due to oil spills etc. Is this job incompatible with being a vegetarian/vegan? I'm kinda worried I will be called a hypocrite
Last edited by rock_climber86; 29-07-2012 at 12:22.