The Spanish 'll'?

Okay, I just started to teach myself Spanish yesterday so I am working my way through the vowel and consonant pronunciation and such. I have a question regarding the 'll' in Spanish. I have the Hugo CD language course so I'm listening to the CD at the same time as reading the book. The book says this :

The letter ll is pronounced in several ways; we imitate it as [l'y], but in some areas of Spain and Latin America it has a strong guttural sound, with the 'l' virtually disappearing. In the Spanish province of Andalusia and in Argentina it is even stronger, the 'l' sound being replaced by something like a soft j or the 'si' in 'occasion'. Thus, mantilla, which we imitate as [mahn-'tee-l'yah] becomes [mahn-'tee-yah] or [mahn-'tee'j'yah]

..but then the Spanish speaker on the CD says the Spanish word 'calle' as [ca'jeh']. I looked around on the net and it seems to be that the pronunciation differs but 'y' is the most obvious pronunciation, so llama, would be [yamah]. Can anybody tell me what is the correct method they were taught?

Cheers

A

Reply 1

Sh4w

9

21stcenturyphantom

Okay, I just started to teach myself Spanish yesterday so I am working my way through the vowel and consonant pronunciation and such. I have a question regarding the 'll' in Spanish. I have the Hugo CD language course so I'm listening to the CD at the same time as reading the book. The book says this :

..but then the Spanish speaker on the CD says the Spanish word 'calle' as [ca'jeh']. I looked around on the net and it seems to be that the pronunciation differs but 'y' is the most obvious pronunciation, so llama, would be [yamah]. Can anybody tell me what is the correct method they were taught?

Cheers

A

That's what I've always been taught. I guess there are regional differences, but I think that's the standard way.

Reply 2

paniking_and_not_revising

21

calle would be cayeh. Well thats' what I was taught.

Reply 3

MelonFace

11

Yeah, a 'yuh' sound. Common mistake at restaurants is people ordering the 'Pollo' (chicken) pronounced as such. Whereas its Poi-yo (phonetically).

Even the waiters do this sometimes....

Reply 4

Languages Nutter

21stcenturyphantom

Okay, I just started to teach myself Spanish yesterday so I am working my way through the vowel and consonant pronunciation and such. I have a question regarding the 'll' in Spanish. I have the Hugo CD language course so I'm listening to the CD at the same time as reading the book. The book says this :

..but then the Spanish speaker on the CD says the Spanish word 'calle' as [ca'jeh']. I looked around on the net and it seems to be that the pronunciation differs but 'y' is the most obvious pronunciation, so llama, would be [yamah]. Can anybody tell me what is the correct method they were taught?

Cheers

A

Sounds reasonable - I've heard "llamo" said as both "lyamo" and "yamo".

Reply 5

MelonFace

11

paniking_and_not_revising

calle would be cayeh. Well thats' what I was taught.

emphasis on the yeh bit tho, as in Cai-yay

Reply 6

frost3dbutts

7

my teacher taught me a "ly" sound. me lyamo. lyamar. but also to say "cai-yay".

Reply 7

username321708

OP

2

The book says to go for the 'ly' sound as well, as in the English 'million'..I think I'll be safe using the ly seeing as you get the 'Y' sound in there anyway.

Oh and Melonface..I just clicked the spoilers in you're signature..haha, thanks for a quick laugh :biggrin:

Reply 8

paniking_and_not_revising

21

So it isn't just a 'y' sound? You can also say Maylyamo (me llamo)???
cooL!

Reply 9

EmUIbA

Hi, I am Spanish from Madrid (where the language is supposed to be "neutral Spanish").

I know that in some regions "ll" is not pronounced as "y", but seriously, in most places it is. I don't even know I have ever heard "calye" for "calle".

So you just prounce the words with "ll" as if it were with "y", same sound.

Same thing happens to "v" and "b". In neutral Spanish, both letters have the same sound, but I think in Valladolid they pronounce them in a different way.

Hope it helps

Reply 10

nuodai

17

There's a certain amount of regional variation. Some South American countries pronounce it like the English J (/dʒ/ in IPA) or even like in shut /ʃ/, and quite a lot around Spain it's pronounced in a subtly different way to the English Y... some people pronounce it as /j/ (same as English "yes"), but in a lot of dialects it's more of a fricative, so it's like English vision, except instead of being postalveolar, it's dorsal and palatal (so it's pronounced with the same part of the tongue as you pronounce yes with, but it goes a lot closer to the roof of the mouth). In IPA this is represented by /ʝ/... that is, it's a voiced palatal fricative.

But for the sake of simplicity, pronouncing it like the English consonantal Y is fine; you won't be misunderstood by Spaniards.

Reply 11

AlanWCollins

When I did this at A-level, the CDs we used had it pronounced as 'j' - as in cayjeh.

Reply 12

username321708

OP

2

Ok..now what about 'y'? Says its like 'Y' in 'yes' but alone or at the end of the word it is like the Spanish vowel i (ee). But the speaker on the CD says yo, like [jo]..confusing!

Reply 13

KayleeLand

16

21stcenturyphantom

Okay, I just started to teach myself Spanish yesterday so I am working my way through the vowel and consonant pronunciation and such. I have a question regarding the 'll' in Spanish. I have the Hugo CD language course so I'm listening to the CD at the same time as reading the book. The book says this :

..but then the Spanish speaker on the CD says the Spanish word 'calle' as [ca'jeh']. I looked around on the net and it seems to be that the pronunciation differs but 'y' is the most obvious pronunciation, so llama, would be [yamah]. Can anybody tell me what is the correct method they were taught?

Cheers

A

Now this is a can of worms! Spanish from Spain would say the 'll' as 'y', however in the majority of South and Central America, they would pronounce it as 'j'.

Thus is depends on where the teacher on the cd is from and I would guess that if your cd has anything at all to do with the US, that it'll be non-Spain Spanish. Yeh actually Hugo is America, isn't it?

I had Spanish teachers all from Spain so I learnt 'y' however at uni my lecturers varied quiet significantly and I was exposed to all different types of pronounciation.

No one single type is correct (though I'm sure a Spaniard might disagree), 'cos it's just like British vs. US English. But you need to be consistent in your use of either one so if you do go down the 'j' route then you need to stick to it.

Personally I'd advise 'y' - I think it's easier (I always reconise the 'j' as being a hard sound in Spanish now).

Reply 14

KayleeLand

16

21stcenturyphantom

Ok..now what about 'y'? Says its like 'Y' in 'yes' but alone or at the end of the word it is like the Spanish vowel i (ee). But the speaker on the CD says yo, like [jo]..confusing!

Yes that's right.

Hola Emilia y Paco... = hola emilia 'ee' paco.

However, the 'y' as in 'yes' is just like what we were talking about, 'llamar' is 'yamar'. Just like the name, 'Yesica' (jessica).

If you're going with Spain Spanish then you need to be aware that saying 'jo' is short for the word 'joder' meaning f*ck. The only difference in pronounciation is that the 'yo' in Hugo is a soft 'j', not hard. The hard 'j' is the bad word.

Do you speak French? The soft 'j' is the exact same as the 'j' in 'jaune'. The hard 'j' is like 'ho' in 'horticulture'.

Try www.livemocha.com for pronounciation exercises.

Reply 15

La Esmerelda

17

There's no correct method.
Most parts of Spain use the 'y' sound and some parts of Latin America-Columbia for example- use the 'j' sound so LLEGAR (to arrive) would be pronounced "yegar" by some and "jegar" by others. It just depends where you come from. There's a similar thing with the letter 's' as well, I think some parts of Latin America actually miss out letters or something like that.

Reply 16

nuodai

17

La Esmerelda

There's a similar thing with the letter 's' as well, I think some parts of Latin America actually miss out letters or something like that.

Yep, in southern parts of Spain too; it's pronounced [h] when not followed by a vowel.

This song, as well having no vowels other than "o", has the "J" ll/y sound and the s-dropping in it:

Lyrics

Reply 17

username321708

OP

2

Thanks Kaylee. Well that makes it clear enough for me then, I'll stick with the 'y' sound and if when taking A-Levels I get taught differently then I'll just adapt to that. Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies. :smile:

Reply 18

KayleeLand

16

21stcenturyphantom

Thanks Kaylee. Well that makes it clear enough for me then, I'll stick with the 'y' sound and if when taking A-Levels I get taught differently then I'll just adapt to that. Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies. :smile:

Yeh I'm pretty sure that your teachers will go with Spanish from Spain to be honest anyway. Good luck & have fun!