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Are Christians nicer people?

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    (Original post by The Basilisk)
    The bible condemns idle worshipping, but then why do christians now, worship Mary? A statue of her?
    Excuse me? I think you'll find statues and images of Mary in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox branches of the Church but that's certainly not true of all Christians. Have you ever been in a protestant church? You won't find many Mary statues in them.

    Besides which, Mary, isn't "worshipped" as you state; merely venerated as the Mother of God. Saintly veneration isn't the same as worship.
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    (Original post by inequality)
    Apart from salvation :rolleyes: . So you're saying that the only difference between those who will be 'saved' and not is that those who are saved go to church. It doesn't matter if they are not better people, as long as they join the Christian church they will be okay?
    Going to church will not save anybody.
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    (Original post by Howard)

    Besides which, Mary, isn't "worshipped" as you state; merely venerated as the Mother of God. Saintly veneration isn't the same as worship.
    Thank you Howie for clarifying what the position is on Mary, mother of God. I see your wife has instructed you well!

    Many people are under the same misapprehension that Mary is worshipped - worship belongs to God alone.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Thank you Howie for clarifying what the position is on Mary, mother of God. I see your wife has instructed you well!
    Well, the court's still out on that one. We Lutherans (in common with all the protestant branches) are still unconvinced but it did seem a reasonable way of explaining why Mary was venerated (rather than worshipped) to someone who wasn't quite grasping the difference
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, the courts still out on that one. We Lutherans are still unconvinced but it did seem a reasonable way of explaining why Mary was venerated (rather than worshipped) to someone who wasn't quite grasping the difference
    I can only answer for myself in truth - and I do not worship Mary but revere her because God chose her to be the mother of His only son Jesus Christ.

    I have just returned from pilgrimige to a Marian shrine. I did it in memory of my late brother. It was good for my soul (and his - with all the amount of time I spent on my knees praying for him!)
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I have just returned from pilgrimige to a Marian shrine. I did it in memory of my late brother. It was good for my soul (and his - with all the amount of time I spent on my knees praying for him!)
    Good for you yawn. Nothing at all wrong with that IMVHO (as a non RC) Which shrine did you go to?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Good for you yawn. Nothing at all wrong with that IMVHO (as a non RC) Which shrine did you go to?
    Knock - in the west of Ireland.

    I also quenched my thirst in some of the local pubs - great people, great craic and atrocious weather - that's why I had to stay inside and drink - to save myself from the rain!
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Knock - in the west of Ireland.

    I also quenched my thirst in some of the local pubs - great people, great craic and atrocious weather - that's why I had to stay inside and drink - to save myself from the rain!
    You tooketh the cup that overfloweth of the Devils urine? Repent!!
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    (Original post by Howard)
    You tooketh the cup that overfloweth of the Devils urine? Repent!!
    Everything in moderation Howie.

    If a very palatable, fruity and oak smoked red Aussie wine is the devils urine then so be it!
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I can only answer for myself in truth - and I do not worship Mary but revere her because God chose her to be the mother of His only son Jesus Christ.

    I have just returned from pilgrimige to a Marian shrine. I did it in memory of my late brother. It was good for my soul (and his - with all the amount of time I spent on my knees praying for him!)
    Could you please explain the difference between revering Mary in a shrine, presumably containing a statue of her, and worshiping God in a church?

    There may be some basic difference I don't know of, but it seems pretty fine.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Everything in moderation Howie.

    If a very palatable, fruity and oak smoked red Aussie wine is the devils urine then so be it!
    Temperance is a wonderful thing. Although I had no idea the Emerald Islanders were becoming so sophosticated these says.........palatable, fruity and oak smoked red wines indeed........
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    (Original post by Golden Maverick)
    Could you please explain the difference between revering Mary in a shrine, presumably containing a statue of her, and worshiping God in a church?

    There may be some basic difference I don't know of, but it seems pretty fine.
    Roman Catholics believe that the Saints have the power to intervene on their behalf. This is why they say things like:

    "Holy Mary, Mother of God
    Pray for our Sins now
    And at the time of our death"

    But asking Mary (or any other Saint) for a favor is not the same as worshipping God. Veneration isn't the same as worship either.

    And Yawn, if I have, in my supreme ignorance, got that wrong then it won't be the first time.
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    (Original post by Golden Maverick)
    Could you please explain the difference between revering Mary in a shrine, presumably containing a statue of her, and worshiping God in a church?

    There may be some basic difference I don't know of, but it seems pretty fine.
    One must first ask - what is a shrine? In the case of the Marian shrine in Knock - it was erected in memory of the appearance of the mother of God to six people of varying ages and occupations during a night in 1879. The exact spot of the apparition (which was the gable wall of a stable) in incorporated into a chapel where the celebration of the Eucharist takes place.

    So in fact, the shrine is also accommodated within the house of God. The fact that one can both worship God and revere His mother simultaneously is the crux. Catholics believe that Mary is a mediatrix - whilst one prays directly to God one can also call on Mary to mediate with God as He gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Temperance is a wonderful thing. Although I had no idea the Emerald Islanders were becoming so sophosticated these says.........palatable, fruity and oak smoked red wines indeed........
    Well there you go! What with their 'celtic tiger' economy - their sophistication has reached dizzy heights, even overtaking our own in some cases. But they still retain their ability to amuse, delight and entertain their visitors.

    You must go there one day - take your wife - she would enjoy a visit to a Catholic country. They still say 'God bless you' when you leave their company.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Roman Catholics believe that the Saints have the power to intervene on their behalf. This is why they say things like:

    "Holy Mary, Mother of God
    Pray for our Sins now
    And at the time of our death"

    But asking Mary (or any other Saint) for a favor is not the same as worshipping God. Veneration isn't the same as worship either.

    And Yawn, if I have, in my supreme ignorance, got that wrong then it won't be the first time.
    With the exception of a little amendment to the second part of the 'Hail Mary' by way of "pray for us sinners" etc. I cannot fault your grasp of intercession.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    You must go there one day - take your wife - she would enjoy a visit to a Catholic country. They still say 'God bless you' when you leave their company.
    Off to Poland in July; that's plenty Catholic enough for me thank you very much.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Off to Poland in July; that's plenty Catholic enough for me thank you very much.
    Ahh - but can you have the 'craic' there?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    One must first ask - what is a shrine? In the case of the Marian shrine in Knock - it was erected in memory of the appearance of the mother of God to six people of varying ages and occupations during a night in 1879. The exact spot of the apparition (which was the gable wall of a stable) in incorporated into a chapel where the celebration of the Eucharist takes place.

    So in fact, the shrine is also accommodated within the house of God. The fact that one can both worship God and revere His mother simultaneously is the crux. Catholics believe that Mary is a mediatrix - whilst one prays directly to God one can also call on Mary to mediate with God as He gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source.
    So you pray to God to ask for intervention of some sort, and do the same of Mary. Indeed the Hail Mary prays directly to Mary it seems.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but there seems little difference between Catholic veneration of the Saints, Mary in particular, and the worship of God. If you compare it to say the Greek belief system, you could imagine the Saints as lesser deities as Aphrodite with God as Zeus. It seems akin to idolatry in many ways.

    Anyway I'll stop insulting you now
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Ahh - but can you have the 'craic' there?
    I should think so.
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    (Original post by Golden Maverick)
    So you pray to God to ask for intervention of some sort, and do the same of Mary. Indeed the Hail Mary prays directly to Mary it seems.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but there seems little difference between Catholic veneration of the Saints, Mary in particular, and the worship of God. If you compare it to say the Greek belief system, you could imagine the Saints as lesser deities as Aphrodite with God as Zeus. It seems akin to idolatry in many ways.

    Anyway I'll stop insulting you now
    I must admit, RC'ism does seem borderline polytheist to many. And of course, saintly veneration was one of the objections held by protestants who held the view that it was idolatrous; this view helping fan the flames of reformation.
Updated: August 8, 2005
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