The Student Room Group

Poor students excluded from race for top jobs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8380910/Poor-students-excluded-from-race-for-top-jobs.html

As if we didn't know already, research has now proven that the middle-classes/privately educated students have an advantage in the professional job market.

The MP who comments, suprisingly a Tory, says that poorer students need a "fighting chance" of getting the top jobs.

With poorer students being priced out of university education by the uncapping of tuition fees, what chance do poorer kids have of getting the top jobs?

They're already getting cut at one end with blue-collar jobs going to people with more experience (but not more potential ability), and also a large proportion of blue collar jobs being given to migrants.

In the current job market, what chance do poorer kids stand of getting anywhere at all with their careers?

Just think that it's a bit shambolic really that 300,000 tradespersons' jobs have gone whilst professional jobs have seen 1m people fill them-

And that people who are as bright, if not brighter, than their counterparts who just happen to be taught a different subject at at school (and be able to afford the privalige)

In the days where the equality gap is supposedly getting smaller. ( :/ ) you'd think there'd be a level playing field for kids irrespective of their academic background.

What can be done about it?

More "recognition" for more able, comprehensive kids by way of Gifted and Talented schemes?

More "respected" subjects being taught at comprehensive schools?

A combination of the two?
To the person that negatively repped me; are you going to offer an opinion or just express your disdain through a click of a poxy button?
Reply 2
Why did you say surprisingly a Tory? There are a great deal of Tories who go on about how the poorer aren't getting a fair chance... it's not that surprising at all...

In regards to tuition fees as they aren't being asked to pay money up front, they aren't being priced out - they only pay it back when they can afford to.


In regards to these children from poorer backgrounds it doesn't seem coincidence to me that we start discussing how they are out paced by their better off peers when we have seen the eradication of grammar schools, the removal of academic selection and the removal of the assisted places scheme.

In my view, there are a number of things we could do. Firstly, we should reintroduce grammar schools - change the test, as that is somewhat unnecessary. Grammar schools should be available for the brightest children from poorer backgrounds with courses catered to them. We should introduce academic selection into some comprehensive schools so that schools can adequately cater to their pupils.

We should reintroduce the assisted places scheme so that really bright children from poorer backgrounds can attend private schools paid for by the taxpayer. We need to introduce vocational schools as well - for some children, academic study just isn't the answer. For those children, they should be given a quick education to give them the absolute basic (the necessary information) then sent to a vocational school to get vocational study or told to get a job.

We need more catering to the needs of pupils. One size fits all; or standardisation, doesn't work. We need a more flexible national curriculum so that students can study to their strengths rather than be held back by weaknesses. Of course mathematics and English must be taught, but why are some students taught about mathematics that is irrelevant to the real world? For those that aren't interested or have a strength in traditional mathematics, they should be given a course in basic mathematics so that they are competent and are able to quickly calculate sums in their head.

Quadratic equations for example. Are they necessary for every child? I don't think so.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 3
Poor students stand to gain the most from the fees rise.
Reply 4
Who you know and who your parents are is probably far more important than how you achieve and level with your economic back ground. People pulling strings and the middle class club sticking together does more than enough to keep the educated poor out of the top jobs.
Reply 5
There are only a limited number of "top" jobs and if the clever working class get them, then the middle and upper middle class can't get them and they have to take working class jobs.

In terms of social mobility, people can go down as well as up.
HOW DOES HIGHER UNI TUITION FEES AFFECT ANYTHING!?

Come on, yes they were trippled but nothing changes that stops poorer people from going to university. You still get a tuition fee loan which coveres the ENTIRE tuition fee, and under this new system you only start paying it back when you are earning over 21k. The argument that poorer students are being priced out of universities is completely ridculous and is used to only scaremonger and rally idiots who have no idea of the changes
Reply 7
Original post by jaydoh


With poorer students being priced out of university education by the uncapping of tuition fees, what chance do poorer kids have of getting the top jobs?


Don't be ignorant and just jump on the band wagon, the poorer you are the better the student loan you get is so poorer students are actually at an advantage from this point of view

And if they are aiming for the top jobs then how much they have to pay back is irrelevant.

Original post by jaydoh

In the days where the equality gap is supposedly getting smaller. ( :/ ) you'd think there'd be a level playing field for kids irrespective of their academic background.



so just because a kid is from a poor background they deserve a job more than a more well off kid with much better grades.

wealth does not equal intelligence.
Reply 8
Original post by eggnchips
Who you know and who your parents are is probably far more important than how you achieve and level with your economic back ground. People pulling strings and the middle class club sticking together does more than enough to keep the educated poor out of the top jobs.


and what decade do you live in? certainly this used to be true but it definitely isn't any more for the majority of top jobs.
Reply 9
Reply 10
Original post by Taggart
and what decade do you live in? certainly this used to be true but it definitely isn't any more for the majority of top jobs.


How old are you? Have you actually been out and tried to compete in the jobs market? I worked for 5 years in a very competitive industry before I decided to choose a new career. The people who I graduated with from working class backgrounds are probably 5 years behind career wise their middle class counter parts. The leg up their parents where able to give them is a huge advantage.

Don't be totally naive in think you will be thinking you will have a chance in an interview when those you are competing against swim in the same pool.

Yes I probably sound bitter, but I've experience it first hand I'm the first in my family to graduate from University I didnt have the connections other has going into the jobs market and it did hold me back.
Reply 11
Original post by eggnchips
How old are you? Have you actually been out and tried to compete in the jobs market? I worked for 5 years in a very competitive industry before I decided to choose a new career. The people who I graduated with from working class backgrounds are probably 5 years behind career wise their middle class counter parts. The leg up their parents where able to give them is a huge advantage.

Don't be totally naive in think you will be thinking you will have a chance in an interview when those you are competing against swim in the same pool.

Yes I probably sound bitter, but I've experience it first hand I'm the first in my family to graduate from University I didnt have the connections other has going into the jobs market and it did hold me back.


No i don't have any experience personally, however my dad has no degree we came to england with nothing 12 years ago and he has worked incredibly hard to become one of the leading peoplesoft (a financial computer thing owned by oracle) in the world. all of this without knowing anybody in this country, if you are good enough and hard working enough then nothing can stop you.

yes you may get an interview because of personal connections but no one in there right minds would risk their business by hiring a second best candidate just because of their connections.

If you really wanted to succeed in your original job then your first mistake was to use your background as an excuse to not work hard enough.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 12
Original post by NGC773
HOW DOES HIGHER UNI TUITION FEES AFFECT ANYTHING!?

Come on, yes they were trippled but nothing changes that stops poorer people from going to university. You still get a tuition fee loan which coveres the ENTIRE tuition fee, and under this new system you only start paying it back when you are earning over 21k. The argument that poorer students are being priced out of universities is completely ridculous and is used to only scaremonger and rally idiots who have no idea of the changes


The problem with university fees is perception.

People from poorer backgrounds are already told 'don't bother with university - go out and get a proper job!' by the people around them. I've been told plenty of times that I shouldn't be bothering with maths, and instead, I should be getting a 'proper job' to avoid debt and enter the 'real world'. Considering that university currently isn't hideously expensive (I'll be graduating in about £30k of debt) I've been able to argue that, well, it's not too much of an expense for the future earnings it will probably bring. With increased fees, however, it's just going to be even easier for ignorant people to tell clever poor students not to bother.
Reply 13
Original post by Teaddict
Why did you say surprisingly a Tory?
.


You do know the answer to this question right?
Reply 14
Original post by Taggart
No i don't have any experience personally, however my dad has no degree we came to england with nothing 12 years ago and he has worked incredibly hard to become one of the leading peoplesoft (a financial computer thing owned by oracle) in the world. all of this without knowing anybody in this country, if you are good enough and hard working enough then nothing can stop you.

yes you may get an interview because of personal connections but no one in there right minds would risk their business by hiring a second best candidate just because of their connections.

If you really wanted to succeed in your original job then your first mistake was to use your background as an excuse to not work hard enough.


I think you have made the arguement for middle and upper class advantage. If your father had connections in his chosen industry, he would have had a much easier time getting to where he is and maybe, be much more succesful than he is now.

No doubt, some working class people do make it to top jobs against the odds but if you look at the stats, you would find most people in top jobs are from the middle and upper classes.
Reply 15
Original post by Hipster


So?
Reply 16
Original post by Maker
I think you have made the arguement for middle and upper class advantage. If your father had connections in his chosen industry, he would have had a much easier time getting to where he is and maybe, be much more succesful than he is now.

No doubt, some working class people do make it to top jobs against the odds but if you look at the stats, you would find most people in top jobs are from the middle and upper classes.


ok it might have been easier but it didn't exclude him from it which is what this thread is about. getting a top job isn't going to be easy no matter what your social background.

Also i was being serious when I said one of the best in the world, he can't really be much more successful, despite the fact he doesn't have a degree he's regularly asked to give lectures to degree students :P

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