Who should get the blame for bullying? The victim or the aggressor?
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OP is a dumbass.
Original post by rajandkwameali
And I'm not saying it's anybody's fault. I'm saying that creating defences against bullying is key.
Obviously you have never witnessed repeated bullying, been bullied or you're just a flat out terrible troll. Betting on all three.
Original post by rajandkwameali
The management of bullying should encompass all parties, whether schools, parents, etc.
How specifically? Are you implying that the bullied person is as much to blame as the bully by the way? Would you say a fish was as much to blame for being caught on a fishing line as the fisherman was in catching it?
Obviously, the aggressor should be held responsible for their actions. Apart from under extraordinarily exceptional circumstances, we are all responsible for our actions and bullying is something for which there is no excuse. Nobody is ever required to instigate bullying and although I accept there may be a tendency for people to join in as a part of a herd instinct, the individuals who begin to bully others are never obliged to begin bullying at all.
In every instance in which I have observed or even felt bullying, it has been an inexcusable act. To insinuate otherwise is rather insulting to those of us who have endured bullying and I suggest you attempt to dveelop some appreciation of the suffering others undergo as a result of bullying before you make such flippant and ignorant remarks in the future.
In every instance in which I have observed or even felt bullying, it has been an inexcusable act. To insinuate otherwise is rather insulting to those of us who have endured bullying and I suggest you attempt to dveelop some appreciation of the suffering others undergo as a result of bullying before you make such flippant and ignorant remarks in the future.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by rajandkwameali
The management of bullying should encompass all parties, whether schools, parents, etc.
Indeed. It seemed from your OP that you meant just the bully and the victim alone.
Original post by Picnic1
How specifically? Are you implying that the bullied person is as much to blame as the bully by the way? Would you say a fish was as much to blame for being caught on a fishing line as the fisherman was in catching it?
I would say that to some degree the victim should acknowledge that bad people exist, and take steps to overcome encounters with them.
This is a healthy life philosophy.
Original post by rajandkwameali
I would say that to some degree the victim should acknowledge that bad people exist, and take steps to overcome encounters with them.
This is a healthy life philosophy.
This is a healthy life philosophy.
It is a healthy philosophy to try to overcome these things but there is no excuse for the actions of bullies. The way in which victims react is irrelevant; it should not take place at all.
I was bullied several years ago when I was at school. The ringleader, a particularly unpleasant person, clearly has not moved on as much as I have. When I am back in my home town, I ignore him but he still finds it amusing to verbally abuse me whenever possible, even though we are both grown adults. I never return the abuse and although it has tempted me, I have refrained from sending him messages on this website requesting (in a less than polite way) that he stops doing this, as I have seen him post in a section of this website. In this case, surely he is the one who has to modify his behaviour? As with all bullies, they are clearly the ones who could benefit from managing their lives differently. It is unfair to expect the victims to change their ways because of the actions of others.
(edited 13 years ago)
OP, you're an insensitive idiot.
I was bullied at school by chavs. I was bullied for my accent. How is that my fault? I was bullied because I had nice things. Again, how is that my fault?
No one deserves to go through that. And no, it's not my job as much as it is theirs. If they were sensible human beings, they wouldn't be bullying people in the first place.
The way to deal with bullies is harsh sanctions. Don't wait, as soon as someone touches you or harrasses you, get the police involved.
I was bullied at school by chavs. I was bullied for my accent. How is that my fault? I was bullied because I had nice things. Again, how is that my fault?
No one deserves to go through that. And no, it's not my job as much as it is theirs. If they were sensible human beings, they wouldn't be bullying people in the first place.
The way to deal with bullies is harsh sanctions. Don't wait, as soon as someone touches you or harrasses you, get the police involved.
Original post by rajandkwameali
I would say that to some degree the victim should acknowledge that bad people exist, and take steps to overcome encounters with them.
This is a healthy life philosophy.
This is a healthy life philosophy.
OK. The best way for the bullied is to quickly utilise the full force at their disposal- bigger and more authorative people i.e. teachers or, if at work, superiors that they trust. Police in some cases.
It could prove to be more dangerous for the bullied in the short or long term to one-on-one to try to engage in understanding / befriending the bully.
The bully stands to lose more from this but .. that's natural.
(edited 13 years ago)
OP... you're an idiot.
You say you've never been bullied, so what gives you the right to comment on this? Unless you're a bully yourself, trying to lay the blame on your victims?
When I was seven, we moved 2 hours away from where I went to infant school and I started at a new school. (As a seven year old, I'm sure we can both agree that I had no part to play in changing schools). I headed into school, possibly slightly nervous, but enthusiastic and looking forward to making some new friends. From the very first day, I was bullied by a group of girls in my class and was soon ostracised entirely. I was shocked, confused and upset. I had no idea what I'd done wrong and absolutely no idea how to fight this. I was seven; are you saying this was in any way my fault?
This bullying lasted all through junior school and my self esteem was entirely shot. I told teachers and tried to get things sorted- did it help? No. In Secondary school, I asked to be put in a different class to those who'd bullied me and made a valiant effort to be stronger and not pay attention. Did it help? No. Even when I ignored it, didn't let it upset me, didn't respond, they still picked on me, called me names, stole my stuff. Are you still insinuating that this was my fault?
You say you've never been bullied, so what gives you the right to comment on this? Unless you're a bully yourself, trying to lay the blame on your victims?
When I was seven, we moved 2 hours away from where I went to infant school and I started at a new school. (As a seven year old, I'm sure we can both agree that I had no part to play in changing schools). I headed into school, possibly slightly nervous, but enthusiastic and looking forward to making some new friends. From the very first day, I was bullied by a group of girls in my class and was soon ostracised entirely. I was shocked, confused and upset. I had no idea what I'd done wrong and absolutely no idea how to fight this. I was seven; are you saying this was in any way my fault?
This bullying lasted all through junior school and my self esteem was entirely shot. I told teachers and tried to get things sorted- did it help? No. In Secondary school, I asked to be put in a different class to those who'd bullied me and made a valiant effort to be stronger and not pay attention. Did it help? No. Even when I ignored it, didn't let it upset me, didn't respond, they still picked on me, called me names, stole my stuff. Are you still insinuating that this was my fault?
Original post by Picnic1
OK. The best way for the bullied is to quickly utilise the full force at their disposal- bigger and more authorative people i.e. teachers or, if at work, superiors that they trust. Police in some cases.
works the opposite way as far as i've seen. there was a kid in my year at high school who from the start got picked on - for being obese - and followed all the advice from posters, teachers, websites; writing down events as they happen, going straight to teachers and other such stupid strategies.
It not only didn't work, but I believe made things miles worse. Most of the bullying became about the snitching/ note taking; without it, it would probably have just gone away.
It didn't help that the kid was a stuck up, arrogant knob head, but the point still stands.
No amount of government/ school management idealism will change the nature of school kids. if you're getting bullied, you can smack the perp, or expect it to continue. obviously schools can't say that outright, but telling kids to write stuff down and tell the teacher just further alienates them and causes them more suffering.
edit: i assumed we were talking about school bullying, obviously it happens in workplaces and shiz too
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by TimmonaPortella
works the opposite way as far as i've seen. there was a kid in my year at high school who from the start got picked on - for being obese - and followed all the advice from posters, teachers, websites; writing down events as they happen, going straight to teachers and other such stupid strategies.
It not only didn't work, but I believe made things miles worse. Most of the bullying became about the snitching/ note taking; without it, it would probably have just gone away.
It didn't help that the kid was a stuck up, arrogant knob head, but the point still stands.
No amount of government/ school management idealism will change the nature of school kids. if you're getting bullied, you can smack the perp, or expect it to continue. obviously schools can't say that outright, but telling kids to write stuff down and tell the teacher just further alienates them and causes them more suffering.
edit: i assumed we were talking about school bullying, obviously it happens in workplaces and shiz too
It not only didn't work, but I believe made things miles worse. Most of the bullying became about the snitching/ note taking; without it, it would probably have just gone away.
It didn't help that the kid was a stuck up, arrogant knob head, but the point still stands.
No amount of government/ school management idealism will change the nature of school kids. if you're getting bullied, you can smack the perp, or expect it to continue. obviously schools can't say that outright, but telling kids to write stuff down and tell the teacher just further alienates them and causes them more suffering.
edit: i assumed we were talking about school bullying, obviously it happens in workplaces and shiz too
At school, I took both approaches. Once I realised the 'snitching' and trying to get the school to take action had failed, I went up to the main perpertrator in a buoyant mood and smashed his face in. The next day, he assembled a gang to grab me while I was walking in between lessons. They dragged me to a secluded part of the grounds of the school away from security cameras and beat me so severely I ended up suffering what I now recognise to be post-traumatic stress disorder for several years as a consequence.
So in short, nothing works with the most persistent offenders.
Original post by vhvhvh
At school, I took both approaches. Once I realised the 'snitching' and trying to get the school to take action had failed, I went up to the main perpertrator in a buoyant mood and smashed his face in. The next day, he assembled a gang to grab me while I was walking in between lessons. They dragged me to a secluded part of the grounds of the school away from security cameras and beat me so severely I ended up suffering what I now recognise to be post-traumatic stress disorder for several years as a consequence.
So in short, nothing works with the most persistent offenders.
So in short, nothing works with the most persistent offenders.
Hmm, perhaps my advice doesn't work for real psychos...
nonetheless, your story supports my argument that advice to snitch etc doesn't solve anything. So yeah, maybe nothing works... maybe relocation would be the only option.
This is quite a silly thread imo... It's obviously not fair to blame the victim.
Original post by rajandkwameali
And I'm not saying it's anybody's fault.
You might want to change the thread title, then.
"Blame" kind of implies that it's someone's fault.
To understand this, one needs to understand how bullying works.
Bullying starts with a "testing" of the potential victim/non-victim by an act of aggression. At this stage, it is usually with words. The aggressor will make fun of the victim.
STOP HERE. This is the crux point. The victim's upcoming response determines whether or not he becomes a bullying victim. If the victim responds in a way that is interpreted as submissive, INCLUDING "JUST WALKING AWAY" or "IGNORING" the bully (TERRIBLE ADVICE YOU SHOULD NEVER LISTEN TO), then the bully has just asserted his dominance without consequence. This MAKES THE BULLY FEEL STRONG and powerful! He has just discovered that he can show off to anyone that he can make a room full of people laugh at you at any time of his choosing, without any reason to fear retribution!
From the bully's point of view, he's having a ball! This is going to make the bully want to DO IT AGAIN, just because it makes him feel great about himself to be able to do this. Meanwhile, the victim's self-esteem is crushed; angry with the bully because in some way he believes what was said to him, but more importantly the true reason he becomes angry because he (falsely) believes he has no control of his terrible situation. "This guy just came by and wrecked my feelings, everyone's laughing at me, and there's nothing I can do about it!"
By human nature if we are doing something that we enjoy, and don't suffer a consequence for doing it, we are going to repeat doing it. And this is how a pattern develops. The bully gets used to being the bully, and the victim is defeated and accepts that he is to be the bully's punching bag. Onlookers see this relationship between the two and laugh at the victim along with the bully and even join in because "Hey that looks fun. Let me try!" Everyone's going to be punching the human punching bag now and having a grand ol' time doing so.
This stands true for anything. If you enjoy kicking dogs (sadistic bastard) you're going to kick the nice chihuahua before you even think of going near the angry rottweiler or german shepherd. Why? Because there's a consequence that you'll get your neck ripped out by the latter two.
In bullying, the dog's ferociousness is equal to your ability to smartly turn the tables on your aggressor with a sharp wit. If you're under 16, your fists may help the situation for now, but ultimately it's your ability to fight back with words of your own that will prevent you from becoming a victim. Watch how a comedian defuses a heckler in a crowd and you've got yourself a perfect example of a backfired bullying attempt. People that find themselves bullied a lot lack this particular ability. People that are great at it almost never have this happen to them. (I say ALMOST never because even the comedian gets the heckler's comment every once in a while. But 99% of people don't dare.)
The reason the victim struggles so much for such a long time is because the bully is crushing the same self-esteem, SELF-CONFIDENCE and courage that the victim needs in order to stop the cycle. Without it, the victim feels worse and worse about himself, helpless to stop even the most common onlooker of the bully's "show" from making a fool of him as well.
Which brings me to the answer to your question (finally lol). Yes the bully is an *******. But *******s are a part of life. Like all parts of life, you need to learn how to healthily deal with them. It's the same reason you can't blame your car for running out of gas. You need to accept that as the owner of the car it is YOUR RESPONSIBLITY TO PREVENT IT by ensuring there's always enough gas in it. The truth is that the victim is at fault because he allows it to happen. At the crux point mentioned at the beginning of the article, if the victim had turned the tables on the agressor, the bully would have LOST in that scenario and would have instead felt like an IDIOT. He's not going to make himself feel like an idiot again. Others would have laughed at his feeble attempt to dominate and the (non)-victim wins! Guess who feels good about himself now! "He's not a chihuahua, he's a rottweiler!" Think anyone's going to be kicking him?
Of course with already established relationship patterns it's not so simple to break the bullying cycle. Since you've been a chihuahua for 4 years, any WIN in your favor is going to be seen as a fluke. You need to RE-ESTABLISH yourself as the rottweiler with CONSISTENT wins like this if you are going to expect to be seen as a changed man. This can take years, but is worth every second.
The trick to this is that the victim must realize that neither the bully nor the feelings that are invoked in himself can really stop him from standing up for himself. Once the victim feels "defeated", the bully can sense this and can tell that there will never be any consequence. So the bully will forever have a field day and be invincible. But, when the victim realizes that his resolve to improve his ability turn the tables on his bully can never be broken, he at least can try to fight and the better he fights the better he feels.
Calypso545
Bullying starts with a "testing" of the potential victim/non-victim by an act of aggression. At this stage, it is usually with words. The aggressor will make fun of the victim.
STOP HERE. This is the crux point. The victim's upcoming response determines whether or not he becomes a bullying victim. If the victim responds in a way that is interpreted as submissive, INCLUDING "JUST WALKING AWAY" or "IGNORING" the bully (TERRIBLE ADVICE YOU SHOULD NEVER LISTEN TO), then the bully has just asserted his dominance without consequence. This MAKES THE BULLY FEEL STRONG and powerful! He has just discovered that he can show off to anyone that he can make a room full of people laugh at you at any time of his choosing, without any reason to fear retribution!
From the bully's point of view, he's having a ball! This is going to make the bully want to DO IT AGAIN, just because it makes him feel great about himself to be able to do this. Meanwhile, the victim's self-esteem is crushed; angry with the bully because in some way he believes what was said to him, but more importantly the true reason he becomes angry because he (falsely) believes he has no control of his terrible situation. "This guy just came by and wrecked my feelings, everyone's laughing at me, and there's nothing I can do about it!"
By human nature if we are doing something that we enjoy, and don't suffer a consequence for doing it, we are going to repeat doing it. And this is how a pattern develops. The bully gets used to being the bully, and the victim is defeated and accepts that he is to be the bully's punching bag. Onlookers see this relationship between the two and laugh at the victim along with the bully and even join in because "Hey that looks fun. Let me try!" Everyone's going to be punching the human punching bag now and having a grand ol' time doing so.
This stands true for anything. If you enjoy kicking dogs (sadistic bastard) you're going to kick the nice chihuahua before you even think of going near the angry rottweiler or german shepherd. Why? Because there's a consequence that you'll get your neck ripped out by the latter two.
In bullying, the dog's ferociousness is equal to your ability to smartly turn the tables on your aggressor with a sharp wit. If you're under 16, your fists may help the situation for now, but ultimately it's your ability to fight back with words of your own that will prevent you from becoming a victim. Watch how a comedian defuses a heckler in a crowd and you've got yourself a perfect example of a backfired bullying attempt. People that find themselves bullied a lot lack this particular ability. People that are great at it almost never have this happen to them. (I say ALMOST never because even the comedian gets the heckler's comment every once in a while. But 99% of people don't dare.)
The reason the victim struggles so much for such a long time is because the bully is crushing the same self-esteem, SELF-CONFIDENCE and courage that the victim needs in order to stop the cycle. Without it, the victim feels worse and worse about himself, helpless to stop even the most common onlooker of the bully's "show" from making a fool of him as well.
Which brings me to the answer to your question (finally lol). Yes the bully is an *******. But *******s are a part of life. Like all parts of life, you need to learn how to healthily deal with them. It's the same reason you can't blame your car for running out of gas. You need to accept that as the owner of the car it is YOUR RESPONSIBLITY TO PREVENT IT by ensuring there's always enough gas in it. The truth is that the victim is at fault because he allows it to happen. At the crux point mentioned at the beginning of the article, if the victim had turned the tables on the agressor, the bully would have LOST in that scenario and would have instead felt like an IDIOT. He's not going to make himself feel like an idiot again. Others would have laughed at his feeble attempt to dominate and the (non)-victim wins! Guess who feels good about himself now! "He's not a chihuahua, he's a rottweiler!" Think anyone's going to be kicking him?
Of course with already established relationship patterns it's not so simple to break the bullying cycle. Since you've been a chihuahua for 4 years, any WIN in your favor is going to be seen as a fluke. You need to RE-ESTABLISH yourself as the rottweiler with CONSISTENT wins like this if you are going to expect to be seen as a changed man. This can take years, but is worth every second.
The trick to this is that the victim must realize that neither the bully nor the feelings that are invoked in himself can really stop him from standing up for himself. Once the victim feels "defeated", the bully can sense this and can tell that there will never be any consequence. So the bully will forever have a field day and be invincible. But, when the victim realizes that his resolve to improve his ability turn the tables on his bully can never be broken, he at least can try to fight and the better he fights the better he feels.
Calypso545
I don't see how the victim can be blamed, in many cases it is not their fault at all.
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