Twenty-one Oxbridge colleges took no black students last year

Original post by Margaret Thatcher

Positive discrimination is still discrimination, regardless of the fluffy adjective it has. You are harping on about 'equality' and 'fairness', denouncing any alleged discrimination but then proceeding to advocate another form of discrimination that is neither fair nor equal - it's just tool to window-dress organisations.

If you have another look I believe you'll find that I have said nothing against discrimination per se.

I said that I thought the striking absence of black students at Oxbridge was ugly. I then proceeded to recommend positive discrimination and suggest that you and I might have different thoughts about what Oxbridge ought to be and do.

I don't accept that fairness and equality equate to the absence of all kinds of discrimination; to the contrary, I believe a certain amount of it could be called for to right certain historic wrongs. The worryingly low percentage of women in business and the government and the seeming failure of Oxbridge to attract and admit Afro-British applicants are only two examples of these.

Your logic is hypocritical and flies in the face of the moral high ground you have placed yourself on.

I don't think I've done that—we just disagree, you see! :smile:

Because poorer higher education standards have a ricochet effect on practically everything?

If you're right and I'm wrong, the other Russell group universities would quickly take all the ‘best’—ie, the public school kids who have been given the most extensive training in saying exactly what examiners want to hear, remember facts and write cogent personal statements—applicants and overtake Oxbridge on the charts; academics and research would follow in their wake. Potential problem solved, surely?

Margaret Thatcher

I honestly can't believe that Oxbridge would take a look at the form option marked 'ethnicity', see black and then reject pre-interview.

Whence your unwavering faith in the Oxbridge way of doing things? The disbelief you're outlining here could also be caused by your over-simplification. I think it's unlikely that admissions tutors cast a quick glance at application forms to reject black applicants. I think it's far more likely that there can be an amount of prejudice involved; this prejudice need not be conscious, but could nevertheless reduce the chances of non-white applicants.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 61

doivid

17

LOL my friend from school got into Merton this year for Law, and she's black.

Guardian fail

Reply 62

Linweth

16

I think people seem to forget how competitive Oxford is, just because you're 'black' does not give you more right to a place at Oxford than anybody else. It irritates me when people try to find racism in everything.

Reply 63

Mastermind`

17

Yeah, but they did take black cleaners, amirite? :teeth:

Reply 64

Margaret Thatcher

11

Original post by EWS

If you have another look I believe you'll find that I have said nothing against discrimination per se.

I said that I thought the striking absence of black students at Oxbridge was ugly. I then proceeded to recommend positive discrimination and suggest that you and I might have different thoughts about what Oxbridge ought to be and do.

I don't accept that fairness and equality equate to the absence of all kinds of discrimination; to the contrary, I believe a certain amount of it could be called for to right certain historic wrongs. The worryingly low percentage of women in business and the government and the seeming failure of Oxbridge to attract and admit Afro-British applicants are only two examples of these.

Then, clearly, you have a distorted, repugnant vision of what fairness and equality is. Fighting discrimination with further discrimination is hypocritical and achieves nothing but entrenching resentment. How you can see it as fair and equal is beyond me.

As for the examples you cite, protocols should be put in to force to prevent any sort of institutional discrimination (checks and balances for example) and the underlying factors that play a major role in the lack of representation (socio-economic factors in the black community, for example) should be tackled. Positive discrimination is an immoral, quick-fix attempt at window dressing that solves few problems, bar aesthetic value for organisations.

Whence your unwavering faith in the Oxbridge way of doing things? The disbelief you're outlining here could also be caused by your over-simplification. I think it's unlikely that admissions tutors cast a quick glance at application forms to reject black applicants. I think it's far more likely that there can be an amount of prejudice involved; this prejudice need not be conscious, but could nevertheless reduce the chances of non-white applicants.

And it seems you wish to delve in to the realm of the tin foil hat and the far-fetched. As per the applicant that my statement referred to - he did not attend an interview; therefore, the only medium for alleged prejudice would have been through his stating of his race on his UCAS application. One poster has already questioned the university's ability to see the applicant's race; therefore, this applicant's situation is questionable. However, I think the more likely scenario is that he was not a strong enough candidate, through his personal statement or otherwise, rather than a racist conspiracy in the admissions department.

(edited 13 years ago)

That's a shame.

Original post by TheSownRose

It's not Oxford's fault that the black applicants* weren't good enough, was it?

EDIT in response to your added part: They wouldn't have even know he was black before they interviewed him. Seeing as they didn't, they would never had known...

* There - no 'the blacks' anymore.

I guess unless his name was Kenwyn Ogebe or something, yeah. This raises a good point though- maybe UCAS should omit names from university applications?

Reply 67

HistoryRepeating

13

I think that Oxford actually accepted a lot more black students, it was just night time when the survey was taken and none of them were smiling.

Reply 68

HistoryRepeating

13

Original post by blue_shift86

i just want to add that i'm an oxford drop out and i'm from a minority (indian ethnicity). I felt like an outcast when i was there and found it really really tough (socially), cos i was working class, and secondly cos i wasn't white. Oxford is a very white place and if you are from a minority and not used to living in a white area you will be shocked. Some adapt but i didn't and kinda felt out of my place, became severely depressed and dropped out.

Just a warning to u fellow minority, and working class people. Take a long, hard think before going to oxbridge. It isn't as the prospectus cover makes it out to be...it's a scary place full of lots of white people.

Secondly for those of you that are working class (white and minority), i'd advise you guys to avoid oxbridge and russel group uni's. They're full of stuck up, pretentious, arsewipe people. if you're minority, somewhere like ucl and imperial are less white (i.e. have more minority people), but i say white working class wouldn't enjoy it cos it's full of pretentious *****. I mean even the asians and them lot are douches cos they act like the white middle and upper class people. Just avoid Russel group people!

your average joe from London!

Just because you are in the minority doesnt make you any less racist and classist. What's wrong with white people? This is like saying not to go to live in Brixton because there are too many black people.

Reply 69

Aj12

18

Original post by blue_shift86

i just want to add that i'm an oxford drop out and i'm from a minority (indian ethnicity). I felt like an outcast when i was there and found it really really tough (socially), cos i was working class, and secondly cos i wasn't white. Oxford is a very white place and if you are from a minority and not used to living in a white area you will be shocked. Some adapt but i didn't and kinda felt out of my place, became severely depressed and dropped out.

Just a warning to u fellow minority, and working class people. Take a long, hard think before going to oxbridge. It isn't as the prospectus cover makes it out to be...it's a scary place full of lots of white people.

Secondly for those of you that are working class (white and minority), i'd advise you guys to avoid oxbridge and russel group uni's. They're full of stuck up, pretentious, arsewipe people. if you're minority, somewhere like ucl and imperial are less white (i.e. have more minority people), but i say white working class wouldn't enjoy it cos it's full of pretentious *****. I mean even the asians and them lot are douches cos they act like the white middle and upper class people. Just avoid Russel group people!

your average joe from London!

Shut up you raciest classist tool.

Reply 70

blue_shift86

Original post by HistoryRepeating

Just because you are in the minority doesnt make you any less racist and classist. What's wrong with white people? This is like saying not to go to live in Brixton because there are too many black people.

There's nothing wrong with white people. I have many white friends. But I just felt out of place when there's like 400 white guys and 3 indian dude and a black guy in college. This is after coming from an area where 90% of my school was indian/pakistani/black!

More of a culture shock than me hating white people, and the whole class thing just made it worse cos i didn't relate to any of the upper/middle class white people. If they were all ghetto working class it'd have been easier to adapt cos fundamentally class is more important than skin colour for me. Going from majority working class area to a white elitist institution was too much of a leap for me.

Reply 71

blue_shift86

Original post by Aj12

Shut up you raciest classist tool.

you did not contribute to this discussion with your post. Go back to Eton you tory scum!

Reply 72

Aj12

18

Original post by blue_shift86

you did not contribute to this discussion with your post. Go back to Eton you tory scum!

Im just pointing out what a bigot you are, Because you really are. People like you are a blight on society

Reply 73

blue_shift86

Original post by Aj12

Im just pointing out what a bigot you are, Because you really are. People like you are a blight on society

your mums a blight on society for having bore you.

Reply 74

Aj12

18

Original post by blue_shift86

your mums a blight on society for having bore you.

Care to give any more proof of your stupidity

Reply 75

HistoryRepeating

13

My girlfriend is indian and was at oxford with me. I just asked her how she felt about the ratio of white:minorities there. Her response "I hadnt really noticed or bothered to count" which is the CORRECT ANSWER.

Basically it sounds like you wanted to hang out in a little clique of people with the same skin colour and social background as you (as is extremely common at UCL or LSE). The problem is you.

Reply 76

blue_shift86

Original post by HistoryRepeating

My girlfriend is indian and was at oxford with me. I just asked her how she felt about the ratio of white:minorities there. Her response "I hadnt really noticed or bothered to count" which is the CORRECT ANSWER.

Basically it sounds like you wanted to hang out in a little clique of people with the same skin colour and social background as you (as is extremely common at UCL or LSE). The problem is you.

for your info, i am anti cliquey and i had more white mates at ucl than indian mates. The class thing was a bigger problem than skin colour.

Reply 77

blue_shift86

Original post by Aj12

Shut up you raciest classist tool.

You call me stupid, but you can't even spell racist...so it's all relative...at least i'm less stupid than you.....

Reply 78

blue_shift86

Original post by HistoryRepeating

My girlfriend is indian and was at oxford with me. I just asked her how she felt about the ratio of white:minorities there. Her response "I hadnt really noticed or bothered to count" which is the CORRECT ANSWER.

Basically it sounds like you wanted to hang out in a little clique of people with the same skin colour and social background as you (as is extremely common at UCL or LSE). The problem is you.

why does your profile say you are 17. How did u get to oxford at 17?