Muslims suicide bomb Swedish shopping centre

The Muslim population here in the UK is only around 4%, so I don't think it is too late.

The optimistic side of me thinks we don't even need to limit immigration. Islam, like Christianity, will not be able to withstand the force of science and reason. Atheism/agnosticism will, hopefully, continue to grow and dominate.

How about the discovery of genetics ? for one. There are too many to mention. Albiet the discoverers are in a secular country not a christian state.

How about the computer you're typing on right now? Or the internet you're logged onto to get onto this forum. Or the screen you're looking at? Or the windows that are keeping the cold out. Or the light you're sitting under? Or the heat that is keeping you warm? Or the food that you eat for dinner? Hmmmm.

My view is that a tolerant, liberal society does not have to tolerate the intolerant and the illiberal. It's self-preservation.

They may be present in other countries, but they are not defended with religious conviction.

Just a reminder to everyone, I won't tolerate offensive comments being made in this thread. If I have to moderate this thread once more, it's going in the bin.

The ISI is completely justified in training fighters to go into Kashmir and taking on the Indians- for most native Kashmiris the fighters are potential liberators and the Indian troops who have murdered 89,000 people since 1989 and tortured and raped many others are the oppressors who are universally hated.

I can justify the ISI's support for certain Taliban factions purely because it's in the best interests of Pakistan. The intelligence agencies of all countries look to serve their nation's best interest no matter how morally deplorable their actions. This is why RAW tortured innocent Kashmiris on the basis on they might know something, why the CIA supported the gencocidal Khmer Rouge etc.

And to your last point the government of Pakistan is corrupt, weak and dysfunctional and thus it's good that the army and the ISI are autonomous- ever wondered why they are always referred to as "Pakistan's only properly functioning institutions"?

Population of muslims will rise over the decades (mainly due to birth rates and perhaps due to policy of gov over the coming decades)

It's not just about the numbers of muslims but also the views and attitudes of the of non-muslims population regarding their fellow citizens.

its defeat to science and reason as there isn't anything in the quran which is contradicted by science.

as for atheism/agnosticism, they will continue to grow, but have littele impact on the progress of islam (as long as equality laws are in place)....

No, itself contradiction and a silly generalisation. Well yes they are, look at the world through your eyes, not through your disdain for Islam.

As a moderator, isn't moderating what you're supposed to do?

WTF are you talking about?

You keep evading the issues.

LOL considering all your posts have evaded all my points, I wouldnt have thought that you were really entitled to use that as a defence.

My hope is that the swedish gov crack down on the root of this terrorist attack (if it is one) unlike the british (who didn't confront pakistan on their support or lack of response to islamic extremist ideology/terror trainging etc after the london bombings and the general global islamic terror acts.

Britain have invaded iraq and afghanistan to supposedly "liberate" oppressed people (and fight a "war on terror") yet act like a little bitch when it comes to pakistan)......

How many lives and billions have they wasted on these wars (money which could have been well spent at home)

Don't talk about dysfunctional, Pakistan is a barely functioning state; its 10 on the failed state index. I am stunned, you just disregarded Wikileaks, Wikipedia, various witnesses, governments for some Pakistani propaganda. "The ISI is justified in going into Kashmir and taking on the Indians", that is the kind of ideology that terrorists embrace. Your not in a position to justify anything of the sort and shame on you.
RAW doesn't send militants into Pakistan's territory, why should the ISI be allowed to when there are agreements in place? Why, because they aren't. The government has little control over the ISI. Pakistan is a breeding ground for terrorists, they are brainwashed, trained and equipped by the intelligence agency. There are two faces to Pakistan, the ISI and its government. After 26/11 the Pakistani government denied any involvement, they made the right call because they had no knowledge of it. But it later became clear as investigations progressed and Pakistan had to accept it.
Terrorist activity must be condemned, the ISI isn't protecting the nation, no one knows what they are really up to. They consistently make stupid decisions endangering their already fragile nation.

It will rise but it should stabilise if immigration is controlled.



A bit of elaboration would be appreciated.



WTF?

Actually, there is e.g. evolution.



I don't see why the atheistic arguments against Christianity and et cetera aren't going to be persuasive to some Muslims.

the muslim population of britain is very small yet there are those who perceive the influence of muslism to be greater than it actually is and so see it as a threat.

If the majority of non-muslims view muslims and their culture/beliefs in a favourable light then this will only seen to intensify the threat perceived by a section of our society from the muslim population. If the majority of non-muslims see the muslims in an unfavourable light then this will make the 4% muslim population seem even smaller and hence eradicate the perceived muslim threat.

The quran has passages which refer to atoms, pregnancy, geography;mountains, earthquakes etc which fits in with scientific discoveries over the centuries so in that sense there is no contradiction between science and the quran…

as for evolution, there may be muslims who believe in it, just not in that humans evolved from lesser species etc…. The topic of evolution of humans is not a “deal-breaker” as such

In short,the views of atheists will not be as effective on muslims as they have been on Christianity because of the concept of trinity. Many Christians who question their faith do so because of this conept…. Trinity will be the downfall of Christianity as a monotheistic religion.

Pakistan is a tough problem though. It's not hugely stable - but isn't close enough to collapse to intervene at all. And I think that reasonably, there isn't really much Britain and America could be doing that they aren't doing now. When you say "confront" what do you mean? Invade? Isolate? It must be hard enough for Pakistan to approve the American military to operate in it's borders as it is.

Iraq and Afghanistan aren't in the same league as Pakistan though - Pakistan is far stronger than both of them combined. And is, theoretically at least, a democratic nation.

In hindsight, maybe it wasn't worth going to war, but the lives lost and billions spent on the wars aren't just for nothing. You may not see it as value for money, but it has had some results.

Pakistan is a tough problem though. It's not hugely stable - but isn't close enough to collapse to intervene at all. And I think that reasonably, there isn't really much Britain and America could be doing that they aren't doing now. When you say "confront" what do you mean? Invade? Isolate? It must be hard enough for Pakistan to approve the American military to operate in it's borders as it is.

Iraq and Afghanistan aren't in the same league as Pakistan though - Pakistan is far stronger than both of them combined. And is, theoretically at least, a democratic nation.

In hindsight, maybe it wasn't worth going to war, but the lives lost and billions spent on the wars aren't just for nothing. You may not see it as value for money, but it has had some results.

So christianty "invented" genetics? That is odd, name some more.



Are you taking the piss, or do you really think that Christianity was behind the invention of the computer, TSR, double glazing, electricity and electric heaters. I'm having a chinese for dinner, please explain how this was a christian invention?



No, itself contradiction and a silly generalisation. Well yes they are, look at the world through your eyes, not through your disdain for Islam.

Now not that I think I am better then you lot, I am going to stop answering. When I am being told that christianity was behind many recent technological inventions, genetics (yes a monk did lay the ground work but he hardly "discovered" the whole concept) and that it is okay to be intolerant to Islam because our ideas are better, I see a pointless and never ending discussion emerging.

this isn't about helping unstable countries....

I see american and britain as hypocrites who invade countries who have nothing or very little to do with islamic terrorism and yet give billions to the one country who they on record have countless times stated that they are deeply involved in terrorism.

No not invade, as britain wouldn't be able to handle the backlash, not just on the battlefield, but at home (what with the large pakistani pop) and across the muslims world..... not to mention the nuclear issue!

Put strong diplomatic sanctions on pakistan like they are doing with iran and have done with iraq in the past and with other countries.....

why give pakistan billions a year when they know they are involved in terrorism.

no way were the invasions of iraq/afghanistan worth it. try telling that to the million or so dead and the weekly repatriation of british soliders dying in vain....
no good has come out of these wars (it has only been good for the extremist recruitment drive)

WTF are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense.



No, what the Quran has is some vague verses which some Muslims, retrospectively, and with a lot of imagination, are juxtaposing onto modern scientific discoveries.



What do you mean it is 'not a deal breaker'? The scientific community and academia virtually universally supports evolution as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, anthropology, and others. Denying it means you're contradicting science.



Evidence?