TSR Christian Society

Agreed. That's really cool, not to worry about the long post! if I were to tell of my journey with God (my testimony) we'd kinda be here all day, lol. I will tell it eventually. I don't know when or where, but it'll happen! I love the with/for analogy i might just have to steal it.

I'm really sorry for the slow reply, I had to run out.

Sounds kinda similar to mine really, this church I've got in Bristol has shown me so much and I've really learnt from them!

From the same books you quoted:

1 Corinthians 14:34 : "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

Proverbs 27:15-16 : "A quarrelsome wife is like the dripping of a leaky roof in a rainstorm; restraining her is like restraining the wind or grasping oil with the hand."

Seems like the Bible doesn't like women much either...

(Textual and historical context is important for a lot of Christians.)

EDIT: I found this when I was looking for those ... Proverbs 25:16 : "If you find honey, eat just enough— too much of it, and you will vomit." Lol, thanks Proverbs, ily.

Proverbs 27:15-16 : A quarrelsome wife is like the dripping of a leaky roof in a rainstorm; restraining her is like restraining the wind or grasping oil with the hand.

We should have a separate thread in the society for people to post just that and nothing else, it would be so interesting to read about everyone's journey!
Ha, you can steal it, I didn't even realise how good it sounded

Irrelevant.

More alcohol + christianness responses welcome

I didn't realise you were actually asking, the third person usage threw me off

For Christians with a high view of Scripture (e.g. that the theological and ethical principles governing what was written in the Bible are prescriptive for us), there seems to be sufficient Biblical witness against drunkenness (Eph 5, Gal 5, etc).

I think we can see some of the rationale as well though. For one, I think Scripture has some normative ethical call for us even when we don't think there's anything wrong with an act in itself. It might be, for example, that God calls us to some ritual acts or behaviours which have no moral value in themselves, but have moral value because God calls us to them specifically in order to allow us to be marked out as separate, and to refine our dedication to him. This seems to be the basis for much of Leviticus, for example. As well as being personally helpful for us in that respect, it also marks us as different for other people, and so can be incredibly useful in an age where there's such mixing of Christianity/ideology/politics etc, not least for providing opportunities for evangelism. Now, whilst many of this is superseded or made redundant in new contexts (i.e. we do not have the same vocation as the Israelites in following Leviticus), it certainly seems that there is a place for some of these ethical commands, particularly when they are also present in the New Testament. So even if we did not see drunkenness as morally wrong intuitively, I think we have good reason to refrain from it on this basis. It allows us to remain separate, which is useful relationally, as well as in virtue (discipline in transforming our character and all that; cf. Tom Wright, Virtue Reborn), and in evangelism.

But, on top of this, I think we do have good reason to also think that sobriety is important on other scriptural bases. As well as the specific injunctions against it and opportunity for evangelism and holiness sobriety provides, we are also called to both take care of our bodies, not just because they are Temples of the Holy Spirit but also because, particularly in a country with a welfare-state healthcare system, our long term health has enormous implications for the systems which other people contribute financially towards, as well as for our understanding of economical stewardship and responsibility in allocating resources. Furthermore, we are called to have our minds and bodies oriented towards God, as well as to take proper responsibility and exercise wise stewardship over the capacities God has given us in the short term, too. I'm not sure how well alcohol, as a general suppressant of the nervous system, contributes towards us using our minds, bodies, and intellect all for the glory of God, and it may even do an injustice to those who weren't born with these capacities.

It is a question both of resources, and of witness. If we are spending a considerable amount of money on damaging our body and mind in both the short term and long term for a temporary kick, and at the same time participating in a culture which, although not necessarily always wrong, is certainly heading towards alcohol pleasure-dependence (which is perhaps even more significant socially and theologically than the clinical disorders associated with it), then I'm personally not convinced it's the most wise stewardship and culturally-subversive living that we are supposed to be achieving.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Yes, I do realise how suicidal this is on a largely liberal forum such as this. Honesty must come ahead of +rep here, I'm afraid

it would definitely be wonderful!

I shall steal it, thank you xx

I didn't realise you were actually asking, the third person usage threw me off

For Christians with a high view of Scripture (e.g. that the theological and ethical principles governing what was written in the Bible are prescriptive for us), there seems to be sufficient Biblical witness against drunkenness (Eph 5, Gal 5, etc).

I think we can see some of the rationale as well though. For one, I think Scripture has some normative ethical call for us even when we don't think there's anything wrong with an act in itself. It might be, for example, that God calls us to some ritual acts or behaviours which have no moral value in themselves, but have moral value because God calls us to them specifically in order to allow us to be marked out as separate, and to refine our dedication to him. This seems to be the basis for much of Leviticus, for example. As well as being personally helpful for us in that respect, it also marks us as different for other people, and so can be incredibly useful in an age where there's such mixing of Christianity/ideology/politics etc, not least for providing opportunities for evangelism. Now, whilst many of this is superseded or made redundant in new contexts (i.e. we do not have the same vocation as the Israelites in following Leviticus), it certainly seems that there is a place for some of these ethical commands, particularly when they are also present in the New Testament. So even if we did not see drunkenness as morally wrong intuitively, I think we have good reason to refrain from it on this basis. It allows us to remain separate, which is useful relationally, as well as in virtue (discipline in transforming our character and all that; cf. Tom Wright, Virtue Reborn), and in evangelism.

But, on top of this, I think we do have good reason to also think that sobriety is important on other scriptural bases. As well as the specific injunctions against it and opportunity for evangelism and holiness sobriety provides, we are also called to both take care of our bodies, not just because they are Temples of the Holy Spirit but also because, particularly in a country with a welfare-state healthcare system, our long term health has enormous implications for the systems which other people contribute financially towards, as well as for our understanding of economical stewardship and responsibility in allocating resources. Furthermore, we are called to have our minds and bodies oriented towards God, as well as to take proper responsibility and exercise wise stewardship over the capacities God has given us in the short term, too. I'm not sure how well alcohol, as a general suppressant of the nervous system, contributes towards us using our minds, bodies, and intellect all for the glory of God, and it may even do an injustice to those who weren't born with these capacities.

It is a question both of resources, and of witness. If we are spending a considerable amount of money on damaging our body and mind in both the short term and long term for a temporary kick, and at the same time participating in a culture which, although not necessarily always wrong, is certainly heading towards alcohol pleasure-dependence (which is perhaps even more significant socially and theologically than the clinical disorders associated with it, and should really have been the main criticism in all this. In fact, see [1]), then I'm personally not convinced it's the most wise stewardship and culturally-subversive living that we are supposed to be achieving. It simply doesn't strike me as particularly radical living.

Just my two cents.

[1] It just doesn't seem to me as if someone who goes out and gets drunk can speak prophetically with real life, clarity, and effectiveness into a culture so absorbed with and dependent on alcohol rather than God, and one in which alcohol has caused so much strain on relationships, finances, and so many difficulties with God. Sometimes a different kind of morality based on circumstance is required, as I argued in the opening paragraphs. Small problems where something is abused on a minor scale (e.g. science) can still be used, and a proper use demonstrated for them. But when there is a society so captivated and broken by something, I think it takes much more revolutionarily subversive living to speak real life into those communities.

Edit: Yes, I do realise how suicidal this is on a largely liberal forum such as this. Honesty must come ahead of +rep here, I'm afraid

Returned rep btw thanks

By whom?!

Man, I'd take up that offer sharpish

A friend I'm not sure I want to! lol. I genuinely appreciate the offer, but subbing makes tsr more distracting and I've work to do atm

how's yours coming along?

add me

I would rep you, but I can't til I've repped some other ppl more.

thanks for this post, appreciate it! And don't appologise for butting in, if I wasn't inviting a public reply, I wouldn't post on a public forum.

I also kinda apreciate that my testimony is quite powerful (or haha I believe it to be because God has done soooo much with me, most people have noticed the change) and could be good to be shared..

I drink alcohol from time to time, but I don't get drunk, just a little tipsy. I don't like the taste of alcohol, so I stick to alcopops, shots & cocktails (some of which taste rather nice ). I think it's wrong to get properly drunk, particularly if you lose control &/or make yourself ill through it. Tbh I don't get the appeal of getting properly drunk. But I think it's fine to have a few drinks once in a while. Even Jesus drunk wine!

I drink alcohol because I like the taste, not in order to get drunk (although I am a lightweight). I have no moral objection to it and I think it can be great in certain situations - I'm definitely more of a 'drink with a meal' or 'couple of drinks in the evening' person than a 'let's get smashed' type.
I just don't like the feeling of being really drunk. Tipsy is nice, but anything where I'm losing control freaks me out.
However, other people are entitled to drink a lot, or not at all - what I have a problem with is people trying to force others to drink if they don't want to. I suppose it works the other way round as well.

Erm, I tried to finish off the designing bit this evening, but I think I've gone backwards... so I'll sort it out tomorrow. I did do *all* the thermodynamics there was to do

I think I'm going to do some of the research for the suspension thing tonight; a section or two

add me

Its no problem, my Christian obligation is not compelled by rep

I know, but many people have private conversations between them even on the public forums.

Well its no problem anyway, glad to help! Yea I know what you mean, there is a certain definite change which can be quite inspiring but obviously your story is your own. Don't feel guilty about not sharing however if you feel like you want to then go ahead I would say.

Sorry for the delay, I often pop in and out of TSR... but forget to log out sometimes