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Is medicine not enough?

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exactly how do you extrapoloate my post to mean that?

be specific, or fail and facepalm yourself.

Why are you even in the medicine forum? You seem to have some notch in your shoulder for medics and doctors. You have been playing the same tune in multiple threads for quite a long time on TSR, and in all seriousness no one cares. I replied, to tell you because clearly you don't understand. If you're not saying anything to contribute to the OP and simply misunderstand their point, then don't post. Especially with that nonsense you posted above.

And the OP said "privilege" like once perhaps twice, I hardly thinks it warrants that pointless and childish rant.

And yes, from your post (despite being completely on a tangent to the OP) you seemed to say everyone who applies for medicine has given up their privileges and comforts in life. Basically saying doctors are wasting their lives and giving up their own happiness. So it sounds to me you think people should not bother. Which in itself is a stupid idea. I found your entire post to be stupid. Contrary to your dubious post, a privilege is defined as:

- a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all

By this merit, and in stark contrast to your rant, I would say all medical students and doctors have very large privilege. To study medicine thus is not to lose privileges, but to have privilege by the definition of the word.

Again: :facepalm2:

to you.

You essentially used the word "privilege" completely wrong and made one of the worst posts I have seen on TSR so far.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 21

Gizmo!

Original post by Facticity

And the OP said "privilege" like once perhaps twice, I hardly thinks it warrants that pointless and childish rant.

why not? its not childish to point out that you are picking a relatively dark and tough career, not simply a course that is viewed as prestigious. its childish for an adult to view it as simply a ubercool course, though its understandable that you think of it this way at this point in your life.

And yes, from your post (despite being completely on a tangent to the OP) you seemed to say everyone who applies for medicine has given up their privileges and comforts in life. Basically saying doctors are wasting their lives and giving up their own happiness. So it sounds to me you think people should not bother.

well you are losing me here. I'd prefer that you reread what I wrote rather than triplicate your self facepalm. You see, macca, I said that I believe that those who love the subject will thrive in it. I think one day you will find that most peope you meet would avoid a medical career, you know.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 22

Facticity

Original post by Gizmo!

that doesnt explain your point. It does make you seem desperate to win your argument though.

Errm ... okay if you say so. I'm not trying to "win" any argument, just point out the nonsense you're exuding.

Who said its dark? Training for the Olympics is tough, there are many less Olympians than doctors. It doesn't mean it isn't something people will enjoy greatly despite the trials. Who said anything about cool? Now you're making unfounded claims based on your own ego and discriminations. My point in life? It sounds like you still have some growing up to do to be honest.

I clearly said that those who love the subject will thrive. How did you miss this three times in succession? triple facepalm,no?

No you didn't.... are you forgetful and nonsensical? Here is what you said:

gizmo!

Well I wouldnt start for a moment thinking that you need to pick a place with the most privilege, because a privilege is something that you enjoy, like a 30% your shopping bill or free use of the ski lodge on your stay abroad. Indeed a privilege to be able to apply to university ... the vast majority dont have the option. Its a privilege to be at a uni that suits your needs...but not simply to be at a posh uni. If that uni dosnt suit your needs, its no privilege, its a dull-as-death sentence for five years.

a privilege isnt a doorway into career that will have you facing lots of rather uninteresting nonstop exams, lost earnings from the extra years at university, a massive debt on leaving university and a job that will put you in an early grave if you do it properly.

although the fairly good eventual wage is a definitely a privilege! and having the time to enjoy your life outside medicine is, you will find, the biggest privilege of all....unfortunately you've shrunk that privilege by choosing this profession.

Not once in that does it say people who enjoy medicine will thrive in it. This is the original statement. As full of nonsense and false uses of the word "privilege" as it is, it does not once say people will thrive if they love the subject.

Nice dodge by the way around the fact that your post hinged on the word "privilege" which as I had shown was used completely wrong. I think you're struggling to maintain any semblance of a point.

This quite rightly deserves another :facepalm2:

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 23

Sereni

I applied to UCL to keep my Dad happy, Leeds becuase my mum went there (i vistited both and liked them both). From there Sheffield and Barts were quite strategically chosen based on my UKCAT score (737.5)

Reply 24

Gizmo!

Original post by Facticity

Errm ... okay if you say so. I'm not trying to "win" any argument, just point out the nonsense you're exuding.
Who said its dark? Training for the Olympics is tough, there are many less Olympians than doctors. It doesn't mean it isn't something people will enjoy greatly despite the trials. Who said anything about cool? Now you're making unfounded claims based on your own ego and discriminations. My point in life? It sounds like you still have some growing up to do to be honest. sorry, but medicine as a career is tough whether you admit it or not. it drives many to drink. bad. dark, yes.

however, you do have a point here -

No you didn't.... are you forgetful and nonsensical? Here is what you said:

- actually neither, wrong again. i either lost that sentence in the re-edit, or posted it elsewhere. Being rude seems to be the whole point of your reply, but if you also truely believe that I feel medicine is bad for everyone, then you've forgotten that I am currently doing it becos I enjoy it, so I couldnt rightly say its crap for everyone. So I am sorry for the failed edit on my part, but you must know I'm a medic so I'd know thats lots of medics love the subject, so I am sorry that this makes all your facepalms on the subject self inflicted.

You also know that a privilege is an exclusive shopping discount, or a family member lending you their holiday home. In contrast anyone who can mount a decent application can be a medic , thats anyone, a few thickies aside. Sure, its nice to win a med school place, and you can even choose to feel its a privilege - thats a common fresher feeling - but its a fresher feeling thats for some is long gone on the wards and you weigh up what you are required to do compared to what other grads do. If its not so then tell me which large group who can apply to university, cant get into med school?

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 25

Facticity

Original post by Gizmo!

sorry, but medicine as a career is tough whether you admit it or not. it drives many to drink. bad. dark, yes.

It is hard, I never denied that, but I meant that MANY proffessions are hard if not harder. So difficulty if you realise that it is difficult is not an issue. In fact, many study medicine for the difficulty and interest in the deep body mechanics of humans. Hence researchers.
So? Many things drive people to drink, simply being a teacher drives people to drink. Your making generalisations here and your points are applicable to many people and quite fallacious.

I think you can see what I believe now, so you ought to understand your attack was unnecessary, as i aloso believe exclusive shopping discounts and ski lodge use are definitely privelidges for some, but anyone who can put in a decent application to university can get into medicine, so no its not an exclusive club, sorry its not.

It wasn't an attack, I was merely pointing out the misconception you were holding. It is a privilege :facepalm2:

Honestly, you really need to look at the objective facts.

You may be able to call in to book to go skiing and may have to apply for medical school however your sad generalisation simply tells me you have never applied for medicine. Its ridiculously hard to get in and I think many people on TSR would tell you that from seeing you comment on "anyone with a decent application can get in". You are seriously deluded. Medicine is a huge privilege. There are FAR FAR more people who go skiing than there are medical applicants. If you earn over £15,000 a year you are in the top 10% of earners in the world. Its easy to say people who have £15,000 are not priviledged however speaking broadly that would be completely wrong! Earning £15,000 is a privilege in as much as being a Doctor whom contribute to less than 1% of the population, is a privilege. Medicine is far more of a privilege than Skiing. I think you need to grow up.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 26

Gizmo!

Original post by Facticity

It is hard, I never denied that, but I meant that MANY proffessions are hard if not harder.

although many roads are harder, it doesnt for one minute suggest you should pick a much harder one simply becase they exist. its a tough career that tears apart lots of people, whether you accept that or not either today, tomorrow or in 7 years time.

It wasn't an attack, I was merely pointing out the misconception you were holding. It is a priviledge :facepalm2:

Honestly, you really need to look at the objective facts.

let me know what they are, macca, maybe they've changed in the ten years I been looking at them. Also, you need to learn to spell privilege. at the moment you seem to be talking about gardening( joke).

. There are FAR FAR more people who go skiing than there are medical applicants... Its easy to say people who have £15,000 are not priviledged however speaking broadly that would be completely wrong! Earning £15,000 is a privilege in as much as being a Doctor whom contribute to less than 1% of the population, is a privilege. Medicine is far more of a privilege than Skiing. I think you need to grow up.

unfortunately for your failed point, I was talking about your friend lending you their a free access to the ski lodge, not who can afford to go skiing. But let me know what part of you missing that point means I need to grow up. Personally I'd say that skiiing would be a huge privilege for me, seeing as I cant afford it, but med school I can afford with a push. Clearly theres an element of personal belief/income involved in this definition. I am certainly glad I am in rather than not in med school, if this is what you mean by privilege. Maybe as an applicant, you dont have a med school place much as I cant afford skiiing, so for you the med school place seems such a big privilege? Maybe thats it, especially if you believe you can barely get in - thats makes it seem so much bigger to you?

Its ridiculously hard to get in

i am guessing you are about 17/18/19 applying for the course? If so, come back to me on that in two years time. I'll be here when you rephrase what you said, count on it. Finally - Thank you for editing out your misconception that I've never applied to med school, macca.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 27

Facticity

Original post by Gizmo!

Who said that? Not I. I simply said there are many difficult professions in life. There are many easier careers which also tear people completely apart. Your point is once again obscured by your own thoughts and lack of subjectivity.

Okay, you've lost all semblance of debate so have degraded into correcting a minor spelling error which is the first in a multitude of posts. :facepalm2:

<-- required for this moment.

My overall point about medicine being a high privilege is still entirely relevant. In fact, much more so now that the premise is "friend lending you a skii pass". Lol you think med school privilege is just money? Your delusion worsens, its so much more.

i am guessing you are about 17/18/19 applynig for the course. come back to me on that in two years time. I'll be here when you rephrase what you said, count on it.

What does that even mean? To me it simply seems your entire point has crumbled. If you have nothing productive or counter-argementative to present then don't quote me again its simply unnecessary.

Reply 28

Gizmo!

Original post by Facticity

Okay, you've lost all semblance of debate so have degraded into correcting a minor spelling error which is the first in a multitude of posts. :facepalm2:

<-- required for this moment. sorry you didnt get that sentence, but it was a joke. you must have chosen to not read the words JOKE which was clearly there in brackets for anyone to see.

I think that if you are now misinterpreting things to the point you refuse to read words in sentences, there no way in your current state of mind that you read this. We'll speak more at a later date when you choose to read it all. Perhaps at med school, I would suggest.

And just to show you are my macca, here is a cool vid to keep you entertained for now -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFo9X2PFMYQ

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 29

thisismycatch22

Original post by Gizmo!

ahh, they did say it, macca, but you FAILED to notice it -

no, I didn't. you said "Well I wouldnt start for a moment thinking that you need to pick a place with the most privilege" and then vanished straight up your own backside whinging about something they never even implied. It's just a massive misinterpretation of what they were saying. They were saying offhand it's a privilege to study medicine anywhere, not that they wanted to pick a place with the "most privilege".

Original post by Gizmo!

then why care to reply?
double fail much? cheers.

I genuinely don't care that you've burnt out. I don't know you or have any real stock in your future, and there are lots of other bitter and/or failed medics out there. However, they've got the decency not to fill up TSR and NMM with the same tired crap 24/7. You don't, and it needs to be pointed out every time you take the good old dead horse out for another spin. Note above clearly I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Just make a thread: "Gizmo sez: MEDICINE SUCKS" and bump it yourself to keep it on the front page if the mods aren't wise enough to appreciate your special brand of genius and sticky it. That way anyone who's interested in your terrible posts can read them at leisure. It can be like a special corner of the pool devoted to turds.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 30

airtones

Original post by hslt

It takes data from as late as 2006, it couldn't be that much more modern and still be testing for performance in MRCP etc. And it shows that over 16 years things were pretty constant. (see page 5 and page 9).

Yeah and if it takes data from as late as 2006 (5 years ago, really f***king recent?!) then you need to factor in the PRHO/HO/SHO years it would take to get to that so THE MOST RECENT part of their study is still talking about people who graduated almost a decade ago.

Original post by hslt

Why are you trying to suggest that all of a sudden this trend, present from 1989 to 2005, will have changed and they're all equal.

Because something very important happened between 2000 and 2006 - about 5 new medical schools opened with radically different course structures. The demographics of medical school have also changed with far more graduates going through the system and that study doesn't even consider graduate entry courses because they didn't exist. Given that most schools refresh their course's every 5-10 years this is a pretty big deal. I certainly wouldn't want to base my choice for a job on a medic who graduated 10 years ago.

But I get the impression you are rigidly entrenched in your view on this and nothing I or anyone else can say is going to convince you otherwise. Personally I suspect most medical schools are broadly similar and the differences are more to do with their intake, their intakes ambitions and initial academic level. Career planning is a beast and these studies don't even dent the surface.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 31

hslt

Original post by airtones

How would you objectively compare them then? Are you really thinking that they're all identical? Nothing is identical!

And, minor point, but its 4 years as far as I'm aware, because the 5th cohort hasn't yet gone through!!

Original post by airtones

Because something very important happened between 2000 and 2006 - about 5 new medical schools opened with radically different course structures.

Meaning that they include people who were at these new med schools for 3 years. And 5 med schools is hardly going to make much difference to the other 20 is it? Many of whose courses have stayed identical so, IF the trend was to do with a certain course, or teaching style being better (which you'll note I have NOT said) it isn't that likely that the trend would have been reversed just because some new med schools opened.

I can tell you, at the very least, that I have used past papers at my uni from 20 years ago in some subjects, and although some questions are now irrelevant, and the answers probably quite different due to recent research, they are still in a very similar style and some of them could easily be modern papers.

Like you say, they all use radically different course structures... and these all get identical results? Unlikely. All have different advantages, and these advantages apply to different people.

Original post by airtones

But I get the impression you are rigidly entrenched in your view on this and nothing I or anyone else can say is going to convince you otherwise. Personally I suspect most medical schools are broadly similar and the differences are more to do with their intake, their intakes ambitions and initial academic level. Career planning is a beast and these studies don't even dent the surface.

My god man, I said that this might be the case!!! I was merely pointing out that the only objective data (that and two other papers) show that there ARE differences!!!

I am rigidly entrenched in my views only that people who go to different med schools get different results out of med school. For whatever reason. (I gave as many reasons as I could think of last time). All the objective data available from the last 20 years points to this being true.

I have not said that this is because med schools are better, there are far too many outside factors to say this with any certainty. (the one time i said better, i put it in 'quotation marks' to imply i didn't believe it, and then qualified it to point out that I didn't mean that they were better at teaching or w/e, just that people in those unis tended to get better results out of uni).

It also seems unlikely that how you do 3 years down the line from uni will be affected entirely by what uni you go to.

I do, however, think its a massive shame that some med schools neglect anatomy/pharmacology as much as they do.

Reply 32

airtones

Original post by hslt

I was merely pointing out that the only objective data (that and two other papers) show that there ARE differences!!!

I disagree. I believe from the data available you can only definitively say that there were differences.

After labour won the 1997 election, part of their manifesto pledge about the NHS was they would increase the number of doctors. They did that in two ways, the first was to open new medical schools and the second was to increase the number of places in existing medical schools.

When the new schools started opening in 2000, a lot of the existing schools had a bit of a confidence crisis - here were these new schools opening with new curriculums, different teaching techniques and even drastically different intakes (for example Warwick, a graduate only school).

There was a genuine concern these new schools (bearing in mind most are plate-glass associated) might out-perform the existing schools and so many of them revised their courses, moved to PBL or integrated curriculums, improved student support and facilities etc. It was a period of change in medical teaching and so I'm saying there is a legitimate basis to the argument that just because those studies showed one thing then it may not remain the same now.

I agree entirely that to see no difference in performance between medical schools would be amazingly unlikely - but its equally unlikely a simple rank of schools such as these papers produced would be an accurate representation. Its far more likely that some schools produce graduates better at some things, and others produce graduates better at other things. But on the whole, those differences are irrelevant since any graduate from any medical school has the capacity to do any job they want.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 33

Aku-gila

I sense a lot of tension on this thread..

Reply 34

Lamptastic

Original post by In2deep

Play to your strengths when applying to Med school, anyone who uses any other arbitrary method is almost certainly doomed to fail.

At the moment my strength is failing to get into medicine. :sad:

Reply 35

Facticity

Original post by I<3LAMP

At the moment my strength is failing to get into medicine. :sad:

Keep your chin up, gettin down won't help, only hinder! :console:

From the looks of your sig, you still have 2 universities to go :smile:

Reply 36

Lamptastic

Original post by Facticity

Keep your chin up, gettin down won't help, only hinder! :console:

From the looks of your sig, you still have 2 universities to go :smile:

If I crossed my fingers any more I'd have permanently deformed hands :wink:

. I still hold a little hope for me... that said, if I got another set back I'd have a LOT to think about.. I'm not getting any younger!

Reply 37

In2deep

Original post by I<3LAMP

If I crossed my fingers any more I'd have permanently deformed hands :wink:

. I still hold a little hope for me... that said, if I got another set back I'd have a LOT to think about.. I'm not getting any younger!

Don't give up, I know enough about your application history to know how motivated and passionate you're about Medicine :colondollar:

inspirational stuff if when you do get in :crossedf:

Reply 38

Facticity

Original post by I<3LAMP

If I crossed my fingers any more I'd have permanently deformed hands :wink:

. I still hold a little hope for me... that said, if I got another set back I'd have a LOT to think about.. I'm not getting any younger!

Haha but as I2D said above, keep going, you clearly have a strong passion and determination to study medicine, and I'm sure you'll be alright :smile:

Age isn't everything :tongue:

I'll cross my fingers for you in the meanwhile :wink:

Reply 39

Lamptastic

Original post by In2deep

Don't give up, I know enough about your application history to know how motivated and passionate you're about Medicine :colondollar:

inspirational stuff if when you do get in :crossedf:

I could write an epicly highly original book! :awesome:

Original post by Facticity

Haha but as I2D said above, keep going, you clearly have a strong passion and determination to study medicine, and I'm sure you'll be alright :smile:

Age isn't everything :tongue:

I'll cross my fingers for you in the meanwhile :wink:

Thanks guys.. I'll get there in the end when I stop stitching myself up at interview. One day I'll get an interviewer who finds stuttering and spluttering endearing. :smile: