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What should the international community do about Libya?

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Reply 20
Original post by adam_zed
No I have not been to Kosovo. Yes, in fact it is an Albanian who first got me interested in the conflict, giving me in my opinion the most neutral account. Indeed, when I spoke to many Serbians about it I had to take their accounts with a pinch of salt, however there were a few who I met who told me at length the horrendous behaviour and actions of Milosevic and co, as much

I appreciate, if what you say about seeing it first hand is true, that this is a very touchy subject and I thank you for being able to engage with me about it. Alas my weakness is that I am going on the accounts of people but mainly what I have read in books and on the internet. Maybe if you would be willing to make contact through pming me because as I say this is a topic that I am very interested in and I would love to hear your experiences on it.

Again I am sorry if I have caused you offence, but from what I have read and heard, the KLA funded their operations through drugs and smuggling other contraband, as well as the unsubstantiated allegation of organ smuggling. I have also heard reports of large groups of Serbians being killed in one go Serbs being kicked out of their homes etc. Admittedly I am sure that when it comes to numbers, the Serbians were more deadly, but surely you cannot deny that at least some elements within the KLA were equally as into ethnic cleansing of lands they believed belonged to them as the Serbian Government was? Please correct me with evidence, but Operation Horseshoe prior to Nato bombing was primarily concerned with the forced uprooting of Serbian families as opposed to a systematic use of genocide? As for the Bosnian genocide, I have little idea about it bar it was related somewhat to Milosevic's idea of a "Greater Serbia".

I hope you do not take this as an attack on Albanians, or Serbian people. I have had the pleasure of meeting both and having flown straight from the UK, I was overwhelmed with the friendliness of both peoples. My interest in this conflict was triggered by travelling through the region and the base of my knowledge is built on what I was told by people from both sides.

As I say, pm me with a reply because although I find it interesting, it isnt relevant to the OP.


How else is a suppressed people supposed to fund a guerilla uprising with their purpose being freedom? Of course drugs smuggling is not an ideal method but the albanians were poor and in need of weaponary but that said, no i agree drug smuggling is wrong. However that is just a small detail. Serbia treated albanians as second class citizens, banned their tv/radio, education and language rights for years leading up to the war so with no structure in place for albanians they basically slid further into poverty. I acknowledge I'm drifting from the point here.

The Racak massacre happened on January 15th 1999 with NATO starting their bombing on serbia on march 24th 1999. In fact, the reason they intervened was because of operation horseshoe and the CIA were aware of the plan way before and by the time nato entered kosovo, the plan was already in motion with killings underway.

''During the armed conflict in 1998 Yugoslav Army and Serbian police used excessive and random force, which resulted in property damage, displacement of population and death of civilians.[4] Some consider that Belgrade had already unleashed Operation Horseshoe as early as the summer of 1998, when hundreds of thousands of Kosovar Albanians were driven from their homes'' wikipedia - source.

There is a lot of serbian propoganda out there and it is shocking that it has gained a lot of followers. The organ trade allegations are totally untrue and Dick Marty's report has been laughed off because of the lack of evidence.

But anyway, thanks for the discussion. I am not on here often so i wont be able to discuss this further but it is a very interesting subject although as an albanian i can say that its best to move on and serbia should recongnise their mistakes and accept kosovo as an independent state.
Reply 21
If we intervene it will cause further problems. The victory over Gadaffi has to bee seen as won by the Libyan people, not the west.

Any support from the West will undermine the strength and authority of any government which is put in place afterwards. If the Libyan people want change, it is going to have to get a lot worse before it gets any better if there is to be stability in the region. Any intervention on our part will seriously damage the credibility of any successor to Gaddafi's regime.

Further to that, a no-fly zone will not be the end of our intervention. It won't take long before the situation of a no-fly zone escalates into defence of oil fields, which it self will lead to a full scale ground invasion in order to protect our interests. Once a no-fly is in place, it will become our responsibility to maintain security until a new government is place. And we all know how long that took in Iraq.

What is even more interesting is that we don't even know who these rebels are! The average Libyan Joe has joined the rebel forces in order to overthrow a dictator. But who are the hardcore centre of the rebellion? I'm amazed no news organisation has questioned the motives of the rebel leaders. For all we know they could be religious fundamentalists who will enforce Sharia Law and be just as bad Gadaffi.

It is neither in our interests or in the interests of a long term Libyan state for us to intervene. Yes people will die, and it's likely that Gadaffi will slaughter the inhabitants of Benghazi but we can only hope that this will spur on a greater rebellion and deliver a victory to the Libyan people. It's not our fight to win, especially since we hold no moral high ground since the Iraq invasion.
Gaddafi was a mere puppet to the west and now that he is the target of mass protests by his own people, the west really has to spend much more time to assess the situation.
Reply 23
Original post by adam_zed
No I have not been to Kosovo. .


Did you get pickpocket or robbed at gun point ? The Kosovans in my area are all beggars and thieves
Reply 24
Original post by N.A.T.O
Did you get pickpocket or robbed at gun point ? The Kosovans in my area are all beggars and thieves


What a lame post, I am going to let Rehh Dog answer this one.

Reply 25
Original post by adam_zed
I must object. A systematic attempt to kill Kosovans was not actually implemented until after NATO decided to bomb Belgrade. Not to say that cleansing Kosovo through forced evacuation was right, but the killing aspect which is often used to support acts of intervention was actually encouraged by America's actions. Also how can it be justified to take one side when the KLA were engaging in equally horrific acts that amounted to massacres, rape and killings of Serb-Kosovans? In fact the KLA were touted as freedom fighters despite their crimes against innocent people and such sub-divisions as the 'Gnjilane Group' whose aim was to ethnically cleanse ethnic Serbians from the town. As well as in Gnjiliane, elsewhere over 1000 Serbs and Romani's went missing and over 847 reported killed whilst NATO forces were in control.

I agree with you that when looking at such scenarios with an already existing bias towards America can distort any decision on the matter, however I believe using intervention in Kosovo at least to be a poor example regarding the many questions to arise from it. Especially how the weaker yet just as vicious and bloodthirsty side was supported against the other, who shared the same goals of ethnically cleansing Kosovo.



Sorry I don't really have time to reply in kind to your post. (I am actually taking an extended break from this forum :smile:)

Also I think the user below has started to cover what I would about your post. It sounds like Chomsky's apologetics for his original anti-American stance on action against Serbia. (He still cannot come to admit that, in keeping with what he professes are his principles, he was wrong.)

Wouldn't you say the consequences of todays action by the west speaks for itself with regards to intervention?
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 26
Train a team of special forces from the Rebels to assassinate Gaddafi and end this.
Reply 27
Original post by Aeolus
Sorry I don't really have time to reply in kind to your post. (I am actually taking an extended break from this forum :smile:)

Also I think the user below has started to cover what I would about your post. It sounds like Chomsky's apologetics for his original anti-American stance on action against Serbia. (He still cannot come to admit that, in keeping with what he professes are his principles, he was wrong.)

Wouldn't you say the consequences of todays action by the west speaks for itself with regards to intervention?


I guess you wrote that when we all thought Gaddafi was going to play nice?

All the "user below" did was state that KLA were freedom fighters and back it up with claims that he/she saw first hand heavy action by the Serbs. However there are many documented cases and stories that talk of despicable acts committed by the group. Now I would be a massive tool to say that they were worse then the Serb government, but they certainly werent any better. Yet this user makes out that these were but "minor" incidents. Whilst I do not profess to have a better idea of the scale of the conflict then someone who claims to have seen it at first hand, I would suggest that being emotionally tied to one side may also taint somewhat his perception of certain groups.

As much as I respect you, I do think you go on about "anti-americanism" an awful lot, even to dismiss at least partially valid queries as to their behaviour. I am not for or against Intervention and I believe having fixed views on it is a bad approach.
Reply 28
Original post by adam_zed

As much as I respect you, I do think you go on about "anti-americanism" an awful lot, even to dismiss at least partially valid queries as to their behaviour. I am not for or against Intervention and I believe having fixed views on it is a bad approach.



Oh I agree but alot of the left simply are anti-american, you go the comment is free on the Guardian or new statesman and find supposedly left wing pariahs denouncing air cover for defenceless civilians because it will be provided by an imperialist America. That is just irrational and sycophantic, my accusation is merely a criticism of an actual attempt to dismiss valid queries that are actually in keeping with the principles they demand we recognise they profess.

Anyway, I'm leaving TSR for a while. I have a rather promising job now and procrastination is simply not an option for me anymore. :colondollar:

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