POLL : Gay rights : what if you had two dads?

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Reply 60

username547863

If i had two dads i can imagine i would have been bullied senseless in school....

Reply 61

tufc

Original post by TurboCretin

There is a difference between what is natural and what is right.

What right do we have to interfere with nature?

A traditional, non-homosexual upbringing has worked for thousands and thousands of year, who are we to change it?

Reply 62

TurboCretin

Original post by tufc

What right do we have to interfere with nature?

A traditional, non-homosexual upbringing has worked for thousands and thousands of year, who are we to change it?

A progressive, homosexual upbringing is at this stage untested. Who are we to question it?

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Aside from the homosexuality issue, I disagree with you more fundamentally that we have no right to question our nature. Our ability to do that separates us from animals. It's what makes us rational beings.

Reply 63

tufc

Original post by TurboCretin

We have every right to question our own nature.
Sometimes I ignore my instincts quite deliberately.
But should we be testing it where the upbringing of children is concerned?
Do we want a generation of labrats?
I want no part in a society that risks the happiness of its children simply to demonstrate social reform.

Reply 64

dennisraymondsmith

Original post by aliluvschoc

As a girl, I think a mother is really important. I can't imagine how she would feel when she begins her periods. I'm sure the two dads would do their very best but.. I would never have dreamt of going to my dad for something like that.

THIS

Reply 65

Enoch.

I would question my parents a lot tbh.

Reply 66

Yawn11

I disagree with it strongly.

Reply 67

User414413

I don't know how I would feel given I haven't been raised in that environment. If I was raised in a environment that was accepting, I would feel normal I guess.

Reply 68

SpiritedAway

I can't see how people can play the "but children need both a male and a female influence" when there are so many single parent families around.....

I don't see the problem, one of my friends is in a lesbian relationship and because of rape they now have a daughter, yet they both make fantastic parents. And I can't see also how the "but the child will get bullied..." argument should come into play either, because anyone who bullies anyone for any reason at all, needs putting up against a wall and having every bone in their body broke :smile:

Reply 69

Doubledog

It's a bit like having fourteen heads.

Reply 70

innerhollow

Original post by tufc

What right do we have to interfere with nature?

A traditional, non-homosexual upbringing has worked for thousands and thousands of year, who are we to change it?

My bull**** detector has actually been overloaded. Plenty of examples of homosexual parenting have been found among animal species. Not to mention that homosexual parenting doesn't even harm nature!

On the other hand, all the mining and farming we do to produce the food you're eating, the electricty that you're burning away, the parts for the computer you're using- such things are not just interfering with nature, they are a complete obliteration of nature.

...I really don't feel like going on. Your argument is SO weak and full of holes that it would take needless amounts of time to outline every single, last flaw in the two sentences you wrote. I don't think I could write something so fallacious even if I tried.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 71

tehFrance

Original post by sixthformer

What if you had two Dads, rather than a farther and a mother or one parent?

How would you feel?

I spent my early life with my dad mostly so having two of them would make no difference what so ever.

Reply 72

tufc

Original post by innerhollow

No. The laptop I'm using at the moment, is number 1) Using electricity, a force of nature that has been tamed. And 2) Who would it be harming? Me! It's my choice as an adult to use something you feel goes against nature. We are talking about a child here, maybe 2 years of age who is brought up in something unnatural, and has no say in it.

Reply 73

Blueflare

Plenty of people are raised just by their father or just by their mother nowadays already. They generally have aunts/uncles and other people of the opposite sex around. I don't see why a child being raised by a homosexual couple would be any different from that situation really.

Reply 74

innerhollow

Original post by lonely14

Damn, its must be hard for you dude. I can empathise with your situation being an Asian myself.

Thanks man. My bf has it much worse, though. His parents are strict Muslims.

Original post by tufc

I said it would take too long to summarise what is so wrong with what you're saying, but I'm going to do just that:

- You use the argument that adopted children don't choose their parents... since when did non-adopted children choose theirs? :lolwut:

No one chooses their circumstances of birth.

- You equate the state of being "natural" with being moral, and then define "natural" as whatever you decide.

- You state that heterosexual parenting has always "worked", without defining what you mean by that

- Even if you were able to prove that, you don't realise that simply because a method has been satisfactory thus far, does not mean any alternatives should be forbidden

- You seem to believe that all children who are not adopted by homosexual couples will be given heterosexual parents. They won't

- You don't seem to understand that the concept of a "right" is a human construct designed to protect peope and create a better society. It is not a naturally occurring property.

- You don't seem to understand that homosexual parenting has occurred throughout history and in other snimal species

- You believe that electricity production doesn't harm anyone

You're probably going to select just one of these several points and dispute it. I don't care. WHen your argument is THIS full of fallacies, just don't bother.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 75

Jesse_Mac

Original post by Lewroll

Why would you wish some people grew up in a house like this? Everyone has the right to a mother and father in my opinion. If that is not possible, then any loving household will be the next best thing.

Because clearly I think gay parents can do the job as well as straight parents, and the average gay man/woman, as a result of the inevitable social bias against them, will be more tolerant towards deviations from what is seen as a 'standard' lifestyle, resulting in a child who hasn't had to stifle emotions. Please don't take what I'm saying to say gay parents are better on the whole, I have absolutely no such feelings, just that they can do the job as well as a straight pair could.

The argument tends to be 'there isn't a male and female presence', but as someone pointed out, there are males and females in all other areas in their life. The parents may have an opposite gender babysitter, teachers, neighbours, family friends, relatives.. It really isn't down to 'if both genders aren't present, both genders won't be encountered'.

I'm not using this quote as a 'someone else said it so it must be true' kinda quote, just a little input from actual professionals in this field
Professor Judith Stacey, of New York University, stated: “Rarely is there as much consensus in any area of social science as in the case of gay parenting, which is why the American Academy of Pediatrics and all of the major professional organizations with expertise in child welfare have issued reports and resolutions in support of gay and lesbian parental rights”

Reply 76

username549578

Original post by Jesse_Mac

The argument tends to be 'there isn't a male and female presence', but as someone pointed out, there are males and females in all other areas in their life. The parents may have an opposite gender babysitter, teachers, neighbours, family friends, relatives.. It really isn't down to 'if both genders aren't present, both genders won't be encountered'.

Generally children have the strongest relationship with their parents. Gay parents are obviously missing something as otherwise the child wouldnt have to turn to other role models. A straight couple could raise a child on their own, gay couple need help.

I'm not using this quote as a 'someone else said it so it must be true' kinda quote, just a little input from actual professionals in this field
Professor Judith Stacey, of New York University, stated: “Rarely is there as much consensus in any area of social science as in the case of gay parenting, which is why the American Academy of Pediatrics and all of the major professional organizations with expertise in child welfare have issued reports and resolutions in support of gay and lesbian parental rights”

As I said, gay parents may be able to do a decent job, but at the end of the day- mum and dad>everything else.

Reply 77

2ndClass

Dunno, it would've sounded weird as a kid when I got scared saying "Daddy" instead of "Mummy"

Reply 78

Jesse_Mac

Original post by Lewroll

I disagree. Gay parents may be good, but they will not be as good as straight parents. If I had a child and I had to choose between giving it to an excellent gay couple or an excellent straight couple, the straight couple would win every time.

Generally children have the strongest relationship with their parents. Gay parents are obviously missing something as otherwise the child wouldnt have to turn to other role models. A straight couple could raise a child on their own, gay couple need help.

As I said, gay parents may be able to do a decent job, but at the end of the day- mum and dad>everything else.

I respect your opinions, but it's hard to debate if you're not substantiating any of them. Why do you feel straight parents are better? Because of the gender influence? What if we changed this to the more real world scenario where the option is gay parents or staying in a care home?

I don't think enlisting help is a bad thing, in fact trying to raise a child with no exposure to others is probably a worse thing, a wide network of people the child can talk to is more likely to come about for the child with gay-parents, and given that we can't guarantee the parents will actually be that helpful with every issue the child has just on the basis of their gender, surely more options to turn to can only be a positive?

Just out of interest, do you feel single parents are better than gay? If they stay single? Or if they get a step-parent at some point along the road?

Reply 79

username549578

When I talk about parents in this post, lets assume all parents will try their best to raise the child.

Original post by Jesse_Mac

I respect your opinions, but it's hard to debate if you're not substantiating any of them. Why do you feel straight parents are better? Because of the gender influence?

A male and a female influence is, in my opinion, the best possible option. Thats not to say other options will be bad, just not as good. A child needs a male and female influence. A child, in general, has its closet relationship with its parents (at a young age). Therefore logic shows that a heterosexual couple will be the best option, as they will provide the environement needed to raise a child. Two men cannot tell a girl about her periods and pregnancy etc. They can't. Not like a woman can.
In other societies around the planet, children are mostly raised either by heterosexual parents, or just women. It works. Men are not designed to care for children in the same way that women are. Which is why gay parents will be ineffective.

What if we changed this to the more real world scenario where the option is gay parents or staying in a care home?

I think any decent parents are better than no parents. So I see no problems with that. However, gay parents should not be top priority. If gay people want a child, I think they should only be given one if heterosexual parents cannot be found for it.

I don't think enlisting help is a bad thing, in fact trying to raise a child with no exposure to others is probably a worse thing, a wide network of people the child can talk to is more likely to come about for the child with gay-parents, and given that we can't guarantee the parents will actually be that helpful with every issue the child has just on the basis of their gender, surely more options to turn to can only be a positive?

It certainly isn't a bad thing. But I think the fact that gay parents will most likely be incapable of raising a child on their own, shows that they aren't the best option.

Just out of interest, do you feel single parents are better than gay? If they stay single? Or if they get a step-parent at some point along the road?

A mother raising children on her own can be as good, if not better than two male parents. As I said before, women are designed to care for children. Men generally aren't as good.

Also an interesting point someone raised earlier- we all know homosexuality is biological. So if homosexuals were meant to have children, then surely nature would have provided a way for them to do this. However it hasn't.