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Would the world be a better place without Islam?

Depends.

Some of the greatest poetry ever written was composed by Islamic poets and mystics e.g. Attar's The Conference of the Birds. Obviously Islamic scientists, mathematicians, etc have made great contributions to human knowledge. Whilst Islam and the Caliphate were violent 1000 years ago, they were not really much more violent than the Papal States and the Crusaders.

But unlike Christianity, Islam hasn't evolved. Islamic regimes these days, whether in Saudi Arabia, Iran or wherever seek to impose medievalist Sharia law on people and currently oppress their own people by the tens of millions. So purely to prevent human suffering today, it could be argued that it would have been better had Islam never existed because it doesn't seem to be a reformable religion.

Saudi Arabia isn't run according to sharia, it is run by absolute monarchy who have their own sharia system installed, that's why it's called Saudi Arabia, it's owned by the Sauds. The Iranian system is not a caliphate either, it is run by a board of shia mullahs and they have a president which is not a sharia sanctioned system either. Their justice system isn't run according to sharia either, judges can make rulings based on a gut instinct (which is prohibited under an Islamic system because of potential corruption) and many of their punishments are innovated as well.

Reply 21

Democracy

20

Original post by CombineHarvester

Saudi Arabia isn't run according to sharia, it is run by absolute monarchy who have their own sharia system installed, that's why it's called Saudi Arabia, it's owned by the Sauds.

Really? I think you've cracked a code or something! :eek:

The Iranian system is not a caliphate either, it is run by a board of shia mullahs and they have a president which is not a sharia sanctioned system either. Their justice system isn't run according to sharia either, judges can make rulings based on a gut instinct (which is prohibited under an Islamic system because of potential corruption) and many of their punishments are innovated as well.

Please tell me more about Iran's current regime...being an Iranian, I'm lacking the necessary background and information :rolleyes:

I didn't asked to be patronised. Don't give me that no true Scotsman nonsense, the fact of the matter is that Islamic law is medievalist, whether in its "true" form or in its current form as practised in KSA or IRI. That was the point I was making.

Reply 22

Martyn*

13

Original post by CombineHarvester

There were countless stories going around that Gaddafi is from a Jewish background and he's done everything possible to hide it but I doubt it.

Not sure.

Reply 23

JW92

18

Original post by Gob Bluth

Impossible to defend it really. Look at its record ffs. Also look at Islamic states and the atrocities that happen there. The only people who vote that is better it exists are muslims themselves. The religion is severely backward to what the world is currently evolving into with its liberal democracies in the west. But Islam, is stuck in a rut, and is just not changing.

There are many Muslims who are tolerant and liberal and abhor the rampant misogyny and homophobia of the Islamic Middle East. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. From a global perspective however, it is difficult to describe Islam as a force for good.

Reply 24

CombineHarvester

16

Original post by Democracy

Really? I think you've cracked a code or something! :eek:

Please tell me more about Iran's current regime...being an Iranian, I'm lacking the necessary background and information :rolleyes:

I didn't asked to be patronised. Don't give me that no true Scotsman nonsense, the fact of the matter is that Islamic law is medievalist, whether in its "true" form or in its current form as practised in KSA or IRI. That was the point I was making.

I'm not making the true Scotsman claim, I just don't see how there's any evidence to suggest Iran or Saudi would be better off if the region was secular. It only tends to be dictatorships which are allowed to exist in the region in recent decades and both countries are forms of dictatorships. The Saudi royal family aren't religious either as is the case with many of the rulers in that region so the idea that recent regimes exist because of Islam is a clumsy connection. In other parts of Asia where there's Muslim countries the same issue doesn't exist nor did it exist for the vast majority of the time that Islam has been around.

Reply 25

Gob Bluth

21

Original post by JW92

There are many Muslims who are tolerant and liberal and abhor the rampant misogyny and homophobia of the Islamic Middle East. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. From a global perspective however, it is difficult to describe Islam as a force for good.

I'm not. I know there are good muslims out there, but it doesn't change my opinion on the religion. I'm just stating there is a huge proportion of muslims out in the middle east who are not what i would call good people and the way the countries are run and what they can do is disgusting. Islam is highly politically based as a religion, and so that is why i think the religion just gives problem after problem to the world we live in today. I reinstate people interpret it differently here, and elsewhere, but it does little to my opinion of the religion itself.

Reply 26

Democracy

20

Original post by CombineHarvester

I'm not making the true Scotsman claim, I just don't see how there's any evidence to suggest Iran or Saudi would be better off if the region was secular.

Because, erm, gangs of Shias and Sunnis wouldn't be slaughtering eachother in Iraq and Yemen. Women would gain equality in Iran and KSA. People wouldn't torutre eachother over what was written in a book 1400 years ago. These are just the things that come to mind.

At the end of the day, secular democracies are far more pleasant places to live in than religious dictatorships. That's a fact.

It only tends to be dictatorships which are allowed to exist in the region in recent decades and both countries are forms of dictatorships. The Saudi royal family aren't religious either as is the case with many of the rulers in that region so the idea that recent regimes exist because of Islam is a clumsy connection. In other parts of Asia where there's Muslim countries the same issue doesn't exist nor did it exist for the vast majority of the time that Islam has been around.

I defy you to find me a non-secular Islamic country where there isn't some sort of mainstream, religiously mandated, example of inequality or human rights abuse.

Reply 27

big-boss-91

12

Original post by Rant

Here is another example of a madman calling for a holy war on the West in the name of Islam. He's calling the Western countries "crusaders" in a presumed attempt to link relief efforts in Libya to the Crusades.

But would it be better for the species if the Crusades had been entirely successful - if Islam had been wiped out entirely, or never existed?

I could cite various examples for and against the idea, but I'll leave that to the kind people of TSR.

Please cite your reasons for/and or against, I'm interested to hear both sides of the argument. Poll will be included.

Fatwah disclaimer:

Spoiler

not just islam needs to be deleted from history but all religion, they're holding humanity back from greatness through science. did you know religion held us back 600 years technologically? if religion never existed, our technology would be 600 years more advanced

Reply 28

Emerald City

Original post by JW92

There are many Muslims who are tolerant and liberal and abhor the rampant misogyny and homophobia of the Islamic Middle East. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. From a global perspective however, it is difficult to describe Islam as a force for good.

I think you will find they are in the minority.

Reply 29

CombineHarvester

16

Original post by Democracy

Because, erm, gangs of Shias and Sunnis wouldn't be slaughtering eachother in Iraq and Yemen. Women would gain equality in Iran and KSA. People wouldn't torutre eachother over what was written in a book 1400 years ago. These are just the things that come to mind.

At the end of the day, secular democracies are far more pleasant places to live in than religious dictatorships. That's a fact.

Shias and Sunnis aren't killing each other because of religious differences, if this was the case it would have happened all the time for the past 1400 years. The key reason is that one group is marginalised as a result of the political system (often shias under a sunni influenced dictatorship) and therefore an inequality exists and then resistance turns into violence. The most bloodshed in that region by far was non-sectarian, shias killing shias.

I defy you to find me a non-secular Islamic country where there isn't some sort of mainstream, religiously mandated, example of inequality or human rights abuse.

If I gave you a list of the death tolls caused by secular Islamic countries, it'd be much higher than the deaths caused by non-secular Islamic countries. If you look at it in terms of democracy and representation however, the countries with a better system of democratic accountability have a better record on human rights. The poorest records on human rights have come from secular dictatorships.

Reply 30

Ree-Ree-Real:p

1

Original post by CombineHarvester

Saudi Arabia isn't run according to sharia, it is run by absolute monarchy who have their own sharia system installed, that's why it's called Saudi Arabia, it's owned by the Sauds. The Iranian system is not a caliphate either, it is run by a board of shia mullahs and they have a president which is not a sharia sanctioned system either. Their justice system isn't run according to sharia either, judges can make rulings based on a gut instinct (which is prohibited under an Islamic system because of potential corruption) and many of their punishments are innovated as well.

Thank you. Thank you for saying the truth, finally. Someone understands, that these are corrupt governments. Once, they've gone, people will understand the true, more beautiful meaning of Islam.

Reply 31

Dreamseeker

Original post by Bobsyourteapots

I think thats a completely absurd statement. And there is nothing wrong with Islam but the extremists which you get in EVERY religion. Bad media attention hasn't done anything but worsen the situation for muslims in this country. And its sad that the term islamaphobia was even created.

I'm all for world peace too. But like it or not, there IS a reason why we're at war with Islam. There IS a reason why all Islamic countries are in (relative) poverty, with low standards of education and life chances. There IS a reason why the middle east is one of the most unstable regions in the world. And it isn't due to a few extremists.

I see no Buddhist suicide bombers. I see no massive oppression of women in the Hindu world. Christianity and Islam are the biggest threats to world peace. No, let me rephrase that: to human civilization.

Religion needs to go, preferably before we see a second sun somewhere.

Reply 32

cakefish

10

No better than a world without Christianity...

WE ALL KNOW BUDDHA IS BEST!!!

Reply 33

Dreamseeker

Original post by cakefish

No better than a world without Christianity...

WE ALL KNOW BUDDHA IS BEST!!!

Buddhism aims to develop in a person a healthy way of life, and is by far superior to the mainstream, repressive religions that are at the heart of a lot of the world's current problems.

Reply 34

Ree-Ree-Real:p

1

Original post by Dreamseeker

I'm all for world peace too. But like it or not, there IS a reason why we're at war with Islam. There IS a reason why all Islamic countries are in (relative) poverty, with low standards of education and life chances. There IS a reason why the middle east is one of the most unstable regions in the world. And it isn't due to a few extremists.

I see no Buddhist suicide bombers. I see no massive oppression of women in the Hindu world. Christianity and Islam are the biggest threats to world peace. No, let me rephrase that: to human civilization.

I completely agree with you on that point (in bold). The reason is plain and simple. Because of all the corrupt Arab leaders taking in all of the country's money and hiding it behind sculptures made out of gold, in their massive mansions. They all have fat tummies and double chins. Mubarak - gone. Gadaffi - to go and they rest hopefully will flee some time soon. Once, we have actual people representing the name of Islam, then judge. At the moment, they're not Muslims, or they don't act like Muslims anyway.

Reply 35

Layabout

I'm no big fan of Islam or religion in general, but it's funny when people point out how backwards social attitudes persist in the Islamic third world, and convienantly forget that the same attitudes persist in Christian Africa.

Reply 36

youes25

Pretty difficult question to answer because we have no way of telling how the last 1400 years of middle eastern history would have played out without the advent of Islam. In the absence of Islam the culture and societies of that region may have developed in a way which would compare favorably to those of the Islamic middle east. But the absence of the relative stability which accompanied the establishment of the umma may have led to circumstances which could be described as 'worse' than those of the Islamic middle east. Who knows? All of these problems are encountered without even considering the history of places like India and Indonesia. You should include a don't know option in your poll.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 37

Jungle Is Massive

2

Only for heterosexual male Muslims is Islam a religion of peace. For the rest of humanity it is quite simply death or oppression. Only those who know nothing of the Qur'an truly believe otherwise.

Reply 38

callum9999

16

Original post by Bobsyourteapots

I think thats a completely absurd statement. And there is nothing wrong with Islam but the extremists which you get in EVERY religion. Bad media attention hasn't done anything but worsen the situation for muslims in this country. And its sad that the term islamaphobia was even created.