ENOUGH!
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Original post by Menakshelatte
I in no way support these dictators or see what they're doing right,but enough is enough!!!
After alllllllllllllllll those scandals about Iraq now the same is happening to LIBYA!
Ofcourse Gaddaffi& Saddam Hussein are horriblepeople
but what AMerica and other countries are UNACCEPTABLE!
Eveytime there's civil war ina country they have to butt in!!!
This is NOTHING to do with them!!!!!!!!!!!
They still havent leant form their mistake from iraq and now are applying their polices to other countries!!!
These people might not be happy with their leaders,but that does in no way give any leader a right to kill Gaddaffi's,&Saddam Husseins sons!!!!!!!!
The whole world wasn't happy with George BUSH! but no country leaer goes and kills his sons or gets him hung!
how can all these people complain about Binladin when they terrorise the middle east?!
Yeas Gadaffi is a horribile leader killing his own people but that shouldn't concern ANYBODY!
ORRRRRRR if you decide to somehow be some superman and save the middleeast maybe you should've started from Palestine!
After alllllllllllllllll those scandals about Iraq now the same is happening to LIBYA!
Ofcourse Gaddaffi& Saddam Hussein are horriblepeople
but what AMerica and other countries are UNACCEPTABLE!
Eveytime there's civil war ina country they have to butt in!!!
This is NOTHING to do with them!!!!!!!!!!!
They still havent leant form their mistake from iraq and now are applying their polices to other countries!!!
These people might not be happy with their leaders,but that does in no way give any leader a right to kill Gaddaffi's,&Saddam Husseins sons!!!!!!!!
The whole world wasn't happy with George BUSH! but no country leaer goes and kills his sons or gets him hung!
how can all these people complain about Binladin when they terrorise the middle east?!
Yeas Gadaffi is a horribile leader killing his own people but that shouldn't concern ANYBODY!
ORRRRRRR if you decide to somehow be some superman and save the middleeast maybe you should've started from Palestine!
I'll think you'll find that the US is taking a backseat with the Libya business. They want to be seen to be doing the right thing but it's actually the UK and France that are taking action in this situation. You seem to be concerned with the concept of state sovereignty (the idea that a country should be concerned with its own affairs only and that each state has the right to do what it likes within its borders). In recent years the concept of state sovereignty has been developed/challenged in that the growing importance of human rights is seen to be part and parcel to sovereignty. That means that it is now more accepted that if a country abuses human rights, their sovereignty is less important and so other countries may intervene. Sovereignty is now also seen as something which indicates responsibilty as well as rights and so a country has a responsibility to ensure its citizens are safe from harm. It is also the case that it is now seen as a sort of 'duty' to intervene where there are human rights abuses occuring due to new international law e.g. the ICC (2002) and the UN's Responsibility to Protect (2006).
WOW my A2 politics is coming in handy!
lol, there is a large amount of ignorance on this thread, from both sides (for and against)
personally, i feel a middle ground should be reached, so to cover some points:
yes, this does have some similarities to iraq:
action taken by a western country, to get rid of a dictator
oil rich country (not The sole reason we took action as some people like to think, but certianly a motivating factor - over helping other countries)
But it also has a lot of differences, which have to be aknowledged:
Backed by the UN, (this does not moraly justify it, but it does make it legal, and internationaly ok(to use a terrible phrase))
Lybia has a full scale rebellion, which aims to establish a democracy, and over throw a dictator (iraq didnt have this... Very key point)
Lybian rebellion, (arguably half the country) has said multiple times, that They want us there (much different to iraq)
No matter how bad the bombing is, it is not a ground invasion (yet... but still)
....
Now, onto the other big debate, OIL.
my opinion, is that we didnt invade purely for oil, however it would be nieve to say that it wasnt a motivating factor.
when waying up a pro-con list, it definatly helps, that we could potentially secure oil reserves,
however it is by no means the large issue that people make it out to be... gadalfi said himself, that if the west doesnt interviene, he will honor all trade agreements, and continue trading as normal... so we have no real reason to invade, other than the benifit of having more control + oil not in the hands of a mad dictator...
As for the point, about why should we get involved from a moral point of view... I hardly think the goverments of the world should sit by and do nothing as innocent people are killed by their own goverment... It is always argued that why not help other countries in need, zimbabwe, etc... and I agree, that it would be great for the international comunity (not just the uk) to help more countries, rid them selves from cruel dictators, HOWEVER, that does not make this intervention any less good...Helping one country is still better than helping none, after all... (even if it makes us slightly hypocritical)
So the situation as a whole: to sum up:
its partly about oil,
its partly to get rid of a dictator
its partly to help the people avoid slaughter
its partly, because lybia holds a very strategic position
its partly the various goverments, trying to look good by 'saving inocent people'
its partly hypocritical, as we could have helped many other countries
it partly has similarities to iraq, (but also quite a few major differences)
and im sure ive left out many other things....
but thats just to point out, that its not as simple as: ITS ALL FOR THE OIL!!!!!111!!!!... or ITS ALL ABOUT SAVING THE INOCENT!!!!1111!!11!
personally, i feel a middle ground should be reached, so to cover some points:
yes, this does have some similarities to iraq:
action taken by a western country, to get rid of a dictator
oil rich country (not The sole reason we took action as some people like to think, but certianly a motivating factor - over helping other countries)
But it also has a lot of differences, which have to be aknowledged:
Backed by the UN, (this does not moraly justify it, but it does make it legal, and internationaly ok(to use a terrible phrase))
Lybia has a full scale rebellion, which aims to establish a democracy, and over throw a dictator (iraq didnt have this... Very key point)
Lybian rebellion, (arguably half the country) has said multiple times, that They want us there (much different to iraq)
No matter how bad the bombing is, it is not a ground invasion (yet... but still)
....
Now, onto the other big debate, OIL.
my opinion, is that we didnt invade purely for oil, however it would be nieve to say that it wasnt a motivating factor.
when waying up a pro-con list, it definatly helps, that we could potentially secure oil reserves,
however it is by no means the large issue that people make it out to be... gadalfi said himself, that if the west doesnt interviene, he will honor all trade agreements, and continue trading as normal... so we have no real reason to invade, other than the benifit of having more control + oil not in the hands of a mad dictator...
As for the point, about why should we get involved from a moral point of view... I hardly think the goverments of the world should sit by and do nothing as innocent people are killed by their own goverment... It is always argued that why not help other countries in need, zimbabwe, etc... and I agree, that it would be great for the international comunity (not just the uk) to help more countries, rid them selves from cruel dictators, HOWEVER, that does not make this intervention any less good...Helping one country is still better than helping none, after all... (even if it makes us slightly hypocritical)
So the situation as a whole: to sum up:
its partly about oil,
its partly to get rid of a dictator
its partly to help the people avoid slaughter
its partly, because lybia holds a very strategic position
its partly the various goverments, trying to look good by 'saving inocent people'
its partly hypocritical, as we could have helped many other countries
it partly has similarities to iraq, (but also quite a few major differences)
and im sure ive left out many other things....
but thats just to point out, that its not as simple as: ITS ALL FOR THE OIL!!!!!111!!!!... or ITS ALL ABOUT SAVING THE INOCENT!!!!1111!!11!
Original post by Menakshelatte
oh wow I'm so scaredddddd.I'm gonna obey your orders now.
Just get off my thread and dont comment again.
Just get off my thread and dont comment again.
Mental age of a 5 year old. Learn how to type, criticise, analyse and debate like an adult and THEN plunge into the world of politics. America isn't the problem here, you are. You alone.
Original post by Rory :)
You must be an Arab as you believe a bag of vomit to be actually worth something, can I trade you for a bag of my Faeces?
Whether it's a lie or not you have to think about the fact that Palestine has no oil, it's not really worth saving. Get oil = get help.
Whether it's a lie or not you have to think about the fact that Palestine has no oil, it's not really worth saving. Get oil = get help.
Actually I'm 1/2 Turkish 1/2 indian.so no I'm not an arab.
secondly I was pointing ot how greedy and untrustable these countries are.
I wont trust them with anything valuable or worthless
you said it yourself in the bold bit. "get oil=get help"
that's not help,that's exchange.
Original post by garethDT
We could argue about the similarities of Iraq and Libya all day long. It's like comparing an apple and a banana with me arguing that they are both fruit and you arguing that they are completely different colours and shapes. Pointless argument.
We could argue about the similarities of Iraq and Libya all day long. It's like comparing an apple and a banana with me arguing that they are both fruit and you arguing that they are completely different colours and shapes. Pointless argument.
although we have differing opinons on alot of things,
that is a great quote, and sums things up very well
Original post by WelshBluebird
That is kind of the point though. They are very different.
Personally, I'm quite conflicted in my support for military action in Libya.
Part of me supports it, as my morals tell me stopping Gadaffi murdering his own people is the right thing to do.
But the other part of me opposes it, as we apparantly have no money (load of BS that is).
Personally, I'm quite conflicted in my support for military action in Libya.
Part of me supports it, as my morals tell me stopping Gadaffi murdering his own people is the right thing to do.
But the other part of me opposes it, as we apparantly have no money (load of BS that is).
I think most people capable of independent thinking have doubts over intervention in Libya, pretty much anyone who can spell hypocrisy.
When you look at what countries are considered to be our enemies, the common denominator is always that they try to operate outside of or in conflict with the international banking and trade organisations such as the IMF and they are often countries with lucrative nationalised oil industries who regularly speak out against the West's exploitation of more compliant countries.
When you understand this, everything fits in to place, you realise that the war on terror and the fight for democracy is just a charade, as there are many cases where the West has actively supported and made excuses for dictators and committed terrorist acts.
Original post by Menakshelatte
I in no way support these dictators or see what they're doing right,but enough is enough!!!
After alllllllllllllllll those scandals about Iraq now the same is happening to LIBYA!
Ofcourse Gaddaffi& Saddam Hussein are horriblepeople
but what AMerica and other countries are UNACCEPTABLE!
Eveytime there's civil war ina country they have to butt in!!!
This is NOTHING to do with them!!!!!!!!!!!
They still havent leant form their mistake from iraq and now are applying their polices to other countries!!!
These people might not be happy with their leaders,but that does in no way give any leader a right to kill Gaddaffi's,&Saddam Husseins sons!!!!!!!!
The whole world wasn't happy with George BUSH! but no country leaer goes and kills his sons or gets him hung!
how can all these people complain about Binladin when they terrorise the middle east?!
Yeas Gadaffi is a horribile leader killing his own people but that shouldn't concern ANYBODY!
ORRRRRRR if you decide to somehow be some superman and save the middleeast maybe you should've started from Palestine!
After alllllllllllllllll those scandals about Iraq now the same is happening to LIBYA!
Ofcourse Gaddaffi& Saddam Hussein are horriblepeople
but what AMerica and other countries are UNACCEPTABLE!
Eveytime there's civil war ina country they have to butt in!!!
This is NOTHING to do with them!!!!!!!!!!!
They still havent leant form their mistake from iraq and now are applying their polices to other countries!!!
These people might not be happy with their leaders,but that does in no way give any leader a right to kill Gaddaffi's,&Saddam Husseins sons!!!!!!!!
The whole world wasn't happy with George BUSH! but no country leaer goes and kills his sons or gets him hung!
how can all these people complain about Binladin when they terrorise the middle east?!
Yeas Gadaffi is a horribile leader killing his own people but that shouldn't concern ANYBODY!
ORRRRRRR if you decide to somehow be some superman and save the middleeast maybe you should've started from Palestine!
Oh honey, poor you! Daddy is gonna be home soon. Dont listen to the big boys now, drink hot milk and go to bed soon, okay sweetie?
Original post by Menakshelatte
Actually I'm 1/2 Turkish 1/2 indian.so no I'm not an arab.
secondly I was pointing ot how greedy and untrustable these countries are.
I wont trust them with anything valuable or worthless
you said it yourself in the bold bit. "get oil=get help"
that's not help,that's exchange.
secondly I was pointing ot how greedy and untrustable these countries are.
I wont trust them with anything valuable or worthless
you said it yourself in the bold bit. "get oil=get help"
that's not help,that's exchange.
In that case get me a kebab and a korma.
Stop wanting something for nothing.
Nothing in life is free, get over it.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Rory :)
In that case get me a kebab and a korma. lol
Stop wanting something for nothing.
Nothing in life is free, get over it.
Stop wanting something for nothing.
Nothing in life is free, get over it.
get over what? killing people=oil? cool.
Original post by Menakshelatte
get over what? killing people=oil? cool.
Get over Palestine expecting help if they have nothing to offer in return.
Original post by Rory :)
Get over Palestine expecting help if they have nothing to offer in return.
yh but th're not "helping" Libya either are they??
what if it ends like iraq?
Original post by Menakshelatte
yh but th're not "helping" Libya either are they??
what if it ends like iraq?
what if it ends like iraq?
The rebels are trying to capture the lockerbie bomber to hand him over to the US. (thats nothing)
Oil
The new government want to improve Libya's ties with the west.
Actually yes I agree with you in SOME ways for example that Palestine should have been first stop if they are so concerned. Perhaps there's an ulterior motive (isn't there always?). Though I don't agree with you in that it shouldn't concern anybody if a leader is doing what Gaddafi does.
Original post by BoxesAndBangles
Actually yes I agree with you in SOME ways for example that Palestine should have been first stop if they are so concerned. Perhaps there's an ulterior motive (isn't there always?). Though I don't agree with you in that it shouldn't concern anybody if a leader is doing what Gaddafi does.
There's only 2 reasons why i dont support what's happening in Libya
a)it's unfair.They're selecting who to help..like you say they should've started from palestine
b)There's a masssive embarrassin evidence from the past that this "help" might not end well..Iraq.
Obviously Gaddafi shouldn't be allowed in what he's doing..but these 2 points above just stop me from supporting the UN
Original post by Menakshelatte
I agree Gadaffi should be stopped,you're right there.
But you can in no way guarantee that this story will not end like Iraq after the past
partly agreeing with Gadaffi should be killed i dont understand why?
and why his sons are killed???
Why isn't the leader of Israel or Geroge Bush killed???
until those people are killed US an UK andthe UN aren't in a positions to kill anybody.
But you can in no way guarantee that this story will not end like Iraq after the past
partly agreeing with Gadaffi should be killed i dont understand why?
and why his sons are killed???
Why isn't the leader of Israel or Geroge Bush killed???
until those people are killed US an UK andthe UN aren't in a positions to kill anybody.
Dunno, the west always manage to maintain their hypocrisy
I hope it won't become another iraq, I think they'll just get another leader in who'll cooperate with us & be more reliable than gaddafi.Original post by fallen_acorns
lol, there is a large amount of ignorance on this thread, from both sides (for and against)
personally, i feel a middle ground should be reached, so to cover some points:
yes, this does have some similarities to iraq:
action taken by a western country, to get rid of a dictator
oil rich country (not The sole reason we took action as some people like to think, but certianly a motivating factor - over helping other countries)
But it also has a lot of differences, which have to be aknowledged:
Backed by the UN, (this does not moraly justify it, but it does make it legal, and internationaly ok(to use a terrible phrase))
Lybia has a full scale rebellion, which aims to establish a democracy, and over throw a dictator (iraq didnt have this... Very key point)
Lybian rebellion, (arguably half the country) has said multiple times, that They want us there (much different to iraq)
No matter how bad the bombing is, it is not a ground invasion (yet... but still)
....
Now, onto the other big debate, OIL.
my opinion, is that we didnt invade purely for oil, however it would be nieve to say that it wasnt a motivating factor.
when waying up a pro-con list, it definatly helps, that we could potentially secure oil reserves,
however it is by no means the large issue that people make it out to be... gadalfi said himself, that if the west doesnt interviene, he will honor all trade agreements, and continue trading as normal... so we have no real reason to invade, other than the benifit of having more control + oil not in the hands of a mad dictator...
As for the point, about why should we get involved from a moral point of view... I hardly think the goverments of the world should sit by and do nothing as innocent people are killed by their own goverment... It is always argued that why not help other countries in need, zimbabwe, etc... and I agree, that it would be great for the international comunity (not just the uk) to help more countries, rid them selves from cruel dictators, HOWEVER, that does not make this intervention any less good...Helping one country is still better than helping none, after all... (even if it makes us slightly hypocritical)
So the situation as a whole: to sum up:
its partly about oil,
its partly to get rid of a dictator
its partly to help the people avoid slaughter
its partly, because lybia holds a very strategic position
its partly the various goverments, trying to look good by 'saving inocent people'
its partly hypocritical, as we could have helped many other countries
it partly has similarities to iraq, (but also quite a few major differences)
and im sure ive left out many other things....
but thats just to point out, that its not as simple as: ITS ALL FOR THE OIL!!!!!111!!!!... or ITS ALL ABOUT SAVING THE INOCENT!!!!1111!!11!
personally, i feel a middle ground should be reached, so to cover some points:
yes, this does have some similarities to iraq:
action taken by a western country, to get rid of a dictator
oil rich country (not The sole reason we took action as some people like to think, but certianly a motivating factor - over helping other countries)
But it also has a lot of differences, which have to be aknowledged:
Backed by the UN, (this does not moraly justify it, but it does make it legal, and internationaly ok(to use a terrible phrase))
Lybia has a full scale rebellion, which aims to establish a democracy, and over throw a dictator (iraq didnt have this... Very key point)
Lybian rebellion, (arguably half the country) has said multiple times, that They want us there (much different to iraq)
No matter how bad the bombing is, it is not a ground invasion (yet... but still)
....
Now, onto the other big debate, OIL.
my opinion, is that we didnt invade purely for oil, however it would be nieve to say that it wasnt a motivating factor.
when waying up a pro-con list, it definatly helps, that we could potentially secure oil reserves,
however it is by no means the large issue that people make it out to be... gadalfi said himself, that if the west doesnt interviene, he will honor all trade agreements, and continue trading as normal... so we have no real reason to invade, other than the benifit of having more control + oil not in the hands of a mad dictator...
As for the point, about why should we get involved from a moral point of view... I hardly think the goverments of the world should sit by and do nothing as innocent people are killed by their own goverment... It is always argued that why not help other countries in need, zimbabwe, etc... and I agree, that it would be great for the international comunity (not just the uk) to help more countries, rid them selves from cruel dictators, HOWEVER, that does not make this intervention any less good...Helping one country is still better than helping none, after all... (even if it makes us slightly hypocritical)
So the situation as a whole: to sum up:
its partly about oil,
its partly to get rid of a dictator
its partly to help the people avoid slaughter
its partly, because lybia holds a very strategic position
its partly the various goverments, trying to look good by 'saving inocent people'
its partly hypocritical, as we could have helped many other countries
it partly has similarities to iraq, (but also quite a few major differences)
and im sure ive left out many other things....
but thats just to point out, that its not as simple as: ITS ALL FOR THE OIL!!!!!111!!!!... or ITS ALL ABOUT SAVING THE INOCENT!!!!1111!!11!
I agree with you.very balanced summary. as a cnclusion what do you think should happen and what should our reactions be?
Original post by Menakshelatte
I agree with you.very balanced summary. as a cnclusion what do you think should happen and what should our reactions be?
in the long term, I would love to see a peacefull democratic goverment set up, with as Little involvement from other countries as possible...
I deffinatly do not want to see any ground troops used,
However i am not sure if this will be possible, as the rebellion, seems to be a chaotic mass, and how they will go about forming a new goverment, is yet to be seen (if they win)
Original post by amsie/
Dunno, the west always manage to maintain their hypocrisy I hope it won't become another iraq, I think they'll just get another leader in who'll cooperate with us & be more reliable than gaddafi.
I hope it won't become another iraq, I think they'll just get another leader in who'll cooperate with us & be more reliable than gaddafi.I honestly hope and want to believe in that as well.
if the UN and Uk and Us and whoevers involved actually "help" Libya and leave without causing damage, it will be one of the first useful action they have taken towards the middleeast in I dunno how many years
I think they've learnt from their mistake from iraq,But things can slip away so easily
Original post by fallen_acorns
in the long term, I would love to see a peacefull democratic goverment set up, with as Little involvement from other countries as possible...
I deffinatly do not want to see any ground troops used,
However i am not sure if this will be possible, as the rebellion, seems to be a chaotic mass, and how they will go about forming a new goverment, is yet to be seen (if they win)
I deffinatly do not want to see any ground troops used,
However i am not sure if this will be possible, as the rebellion, seems to be a chaotic mass, and how they will go about forming a new goverment, is yet to be seen (if they win)
I agree with you 100% our feelings are mutual,but everything's quite tense atm.
we both want Libya to be free WITHOUT suffering from the west.
It would definitely create such a positive impression for the UN,Uk and US after IRaq.
Thought I'm still mad about how Palestine was ignored and how Gadaffi gets killed but nothing happens to George Bush
Original post by Menakshelatte
Thought I'm still mad about how Palestine was ignored and how Gadaffi gets killed but nothing happens to George Bush
Thought I'm still mad about how Palestine was ignored and how Gadaffi gets killed but nothing happens to George Bush
i take it youve been to the many isreal/palestine threads on here... your not alone feeling that....
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