The Student Room Group

'Turn Trafalgar Square into Tahir Square'

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=198808963474182&index=1

Came across this through Twitter. I thought it was interesting to see parallels being drawn between what's gong on in Trafalgar Square and what happened in Tahir Square.

I don't wish to besmirch the whole the TUC March today, I know it was peaceful but what's happening in Trafalgar Square right now is worth discussing as a seperate incident.

I think it's pretty disrespectful to draw parallels between the hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens fighting for their fundamental rights against a dictatorship and the usual students, hipsters and anarchists protesting against cuts in the UK.

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Well they have it occupied at the moment, or they did at one point. I'm unsure. The Police seem to be charging them every now and then and I think they have forced them back. Don't think they had much choice because they had fires going and were lobbing lit objects at them.

But yes I do believe it is disrespectful, cuts and fighting for democracy are two very different matters and there is no need to drawing parallels here. To make matters worse I'm quite sure these are the anarchists who have been causing mayhem all day.
Reply 2
What an insult to the Egyptians who fought for democracy in their country

Less than 100 and police on all sides. They have set fires. Why are these ignorant dolts doing this?
(edited 13 years ago)
The people doing these things tend not to grasp the full picture of what they are doing. E.g. "I hate cuts", raise taxes to pay for more things then its "I hate all these extra taxes".

In their heads they probably genuinely believe the two events are similar, where as the majority of sane people know they are talking nonsense.

I don't really have a solution to it as I really wouldn't want to take away the right to protest, but these are getting a bit tedious now. Put aside the fact that they do nothing to help the situation (why would the government care that some people decided to walk down the road? They'll soon get bored and go home), it just inconveniences everyone else and costs a load of money - meaning more cuts would need to be made anyway to cover the costs (or more likely, the country being in larger debt for longer).
Reply 4
Original post by callum9999
The people doing these things tend not to grasp the full picture of what they are doing. E.g. "I hate cuts", raise taxes to pay for more things then its "I hate all these extra taxes".

In their heads they probably genuinely believe the two events are similar, where as the majority of sane people know they are talking nonsense.

I don't really have a solution to it as I really wouldn't want to take away the right to protest, but these are getting a bit tedious now. Put aside the fact that they do nothing to help the situation (why would the government care that some people decided to walk down the road? They'll soon get bored and go home), it just inconveniences everyone else and costs a load of money - meaning more cuts would need to be made anyway to cover the costs (or more likely, the country being in larger debt for longer).


The problem is they surround themselves with people who agree with them. On TSR if you have a point of view it gets challenged everyday, every time you post something. You're constantly re-assessing and re-evaluating your opinions and views based on counter arguments. These protests spend their time in meetings and with people who don't challenge them but egg them on and convince them further.

Really there's no way to solve this and it's a problem inherent in the far-right and the far-left; in all forms of fundamentalism.
Original post by Norfolkadam
The problem is they surround themselves with people who agree with them. On TSR if you have a point of view it gets challenged everyday, every time you post something. You're constantly re-assessing and re-evaluating your opinions and views based on counter arguments. These protests spend their time in meetings and with people who don't challenge them but egg them on and convince them further.

Really there's no way to solve this and it's a problem inherent in the far-right and the far-left; in all forms of fundamentalism.


And in the centre. A lot of the people involved aren't on either end of the spectrum, they are just completely uneducated on the topic, are told by the media they will be worse off so just take their word for it without figuring how or why, and just join the bandwagon.

Same with the bank thing. Ask someone why they hate the banks and it will be "because they caused this crisis" - no reasoned opinions on the matter just "banks/bankers have lots of money and are bad".
Reply 6
Original post by callum9999
And in the centre. A lot of the people involved aren't on either end of the spectrum, they are just completely uneducated on the topic, are told by the media they will be worse off so just take their word for it without figuring how or why, and just join the bandwagon.

Same with the bank thing. Ask someone why they hate the banks and it will be "because they caused this crisis" - no reasoned opinions on the matter just "banks/bankers have lots of money and are bad".


It's just like the student protests. A few simple bits of logic and their arguments are totally defeated yet there are thousands of them in the streets. Thousands of them demonstrating on the basis of an argument they've never been challenged on. In an ideal world all protests would have to pass a technocratic board of approval. :P But it's just not worth the restrictions on our freedom of speech.

I just sit and despair really.
Reply 7
Bloody hell - a TSR thread where I agree with every single post so far.

It can't last :tongue:
Reply 8
Original post by callum9999
The people doing these things tend not to grasp the full picture of what they are doing. E.g. "I hate cuts", raise taxes to pay for more things then its "I hate all these extra taxes".

In their heads they probably genuinely believe the two events are similar, where as the majority of sane people know they are talking nonsense.

I don't really have a solution to it as I really wouldn't want to take away the right to protest, but these are getting a bit tedious now. Put aside the fact that they do nothing to help the situation (why would the government care that some people decided to walk down the road? They'll soon get bored and go home), it just inconveniences everyone else and costs a load of money - meaning more cuts would need to be made anyway to cover the costs (or more likely, the country being in larger debt for longer).


I agree totally. It's one of the things that annoys me most about them. I have no problem with people protesting when they have a valid point but these guys really don't. From talking to a lot of them at university, it's just a case of 'we don't want any cuts, the government could stop them tomorrow if they wanted' to which you reply what about the deficit? and they simply don't have any ideas of how to fix it. They reject any kind of cuts and yet put forth no other proposal. It's ignorance thats what it is. No one wants to cut government services but we simply have to.

My university professor (famously left wing) went as far as to tell me that the government cuts program was wholely unneeded because 'countries don't go bankrupt.' Which is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard. Apparently he's never heard of places like Mexico and Russia defaulting on their foreign loans and what happened to Weimar Germany.

It's almost like they delude themselves that they are correct and everyone else is wrong and they don't even look beyond the 'no cuts' agenda as to what would happen if we have no cuts. In many ways it's the exact antithesis of moderate Conservatism which is based entirely upon pragmatism, analysing the facts we have and taking a reasoned response to it. Rather than just blindly ignoring the facts due to ideological views.

The funniest thing was people attacking HSBC. The very same HSBC which never took any government bail out funds, rode out the recession using it's own funds and came back into profit pretty quickly. If HSBC hadn't already decided to transfer the rest of it's HQ operations to Hong Kong it probably will do so in the near future after that act of retardery. It just made me laugh how they rant on about the bankers and then show their utter ignorance like that.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 9
There are no such thing as fundamental rights, it's all subjective.
Original post by Norfolkadam
worth discussing as a seperate incident.


Exactly. It is a separate incident. And so the violence there should not be linked to the peaceful protest that happened earlier in the day.

Original post by Norfolkadam

I think it's pretty disrespectful to draw parallels between the hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens fighting for their fundamental rights against a dictatorship and the usual students, hipsters and anarchists protesting against cuts in the UK.


I am afraid to tell you that most of the people protesting yesterday were neither of those. They were normal people. Normal people who are worried about losing their jobs, and about their futures. People like my gf's mother who works in the NHS.
Original post by callum9999

Same with the bank thing. Ask someone why they hate the banks and it will be "because they caused this crisis" - no reasoned opinions on the matter just "banks/bankers have lots of money and are bad".


The banks know they ****ed up, yet they're still giving the bankers huge bonuses throughout the year. I don't get any bonuses, yet I do far much more work than they'll ever do *blatantly bitter lyk* :colonhash:

I don't have what you'd call "reasoned opinions on the matter" because the above is all I need to know to be of the opinion that the bankers that partake in that bs are complete ***** :h:
Reply 12
Original post by Norfolkadam
The problem is they surround themselves with people who agree with them. On TSR if you have a point of view it gets challenged everyday, every time you post something. You're constantly re-assessing and re-evaluating your opinions and views based on counter arguments. These protests spend their time in meetings and with people who don't challenge them but egg them on and convince them further.

Really there's no way to solve this and it's a problem inherent in the far-right and the far-left; in all forms of fundamentalism.


Compulsory TSR membership for all students? :tongue:

I agree generally with your assessment, but I've also found that the people who act in this way - who separate themselves from any dissenting opinions - are already those least willing to listen to rational argument.

I, for one, have met a couple of people in my time who are, to put it mildly, entirely immune to debate. Talking to them is like trying to nail jelly to a wall - should you actually pin them down on any subject, they start doing things like debating the meanings of words; and even if you were to give dictionary definitions, the meaning of them would be challenged. Somehow I imagine there are a good few of them amongst those kinds of protesters.
Reply 13
Original post by WelshBluebird
I am afraid to tell you that most of the people protesting yesterday were neither of those. They were normal people. Normal people who are worried about losing their jobs, and about their futures. People like my gf's mother who works in the NHS.


I wasn't talking about the main protest, I respect that, it was peaceful and large and I know many people who went. I was talking about what happened in Trafalgar Square that had a totally different demographic.
Original post by Drunk Punx
The banks know they ****ed up, yet they're still giving the bankers huge bonuses throughout the year. I don't get any bonuses, yet I do far much more work than they'll ever do *blatantly bitter lyk* :colonhash:

I don't have what you'd call "reasoned opinions on the matter" because the above is all I need to know to be of the opinion that the bankers that partake in that bs are complete ***** :h:


Firstly, I'd be surprised if when asked on the matter, you specify banks that have needed bailouts and which gave out large bonuses.

Secondly, you may do far more work (I doubt it - what do you think bankers do exactly? - the type that get big bonuses anyway), but you don't do it for a company with a huge profit margin and a mobile workforce.

It's supply and demand. The banks want the best, so they compete to pay the best. If bankers are so rich and it's such an easy job, I'm surprised so many people moaning about it decided it wasn't the career path for them...
Original post by callum9999
Firstly, I'd be surprised if when asked on the matter, you specify banks that have needed bailouts and which gave out large bonuses.

Secondly, you may do far more work (I doubt it - what do you think bankers do exactly? - the type that get big bonuses anyway), but you don't do it for a company with a huge profit margin and a mobile workforce.

It's supply and demand. The banks want the best, so they compete to pay the best. If bankers are so rich and it's such an easy job, I'm surprised so many people moaning about it decided it wasn't the career path for them...


You'd be unsurprised, trust me :h:
I don't watch the news nor does it interest me.

I work with my hands for a living, so whatever I say is going to be a typical working class spiel. That wall won't build itself.
One of the guys I've been working with recently knows a couple of bankers and what they do in their jobs, and he says that what I could earn in a year they could earn in a few months without the bonuses, and they spend most of their day sitting on their arses with a pen in one hand and a Subway in the other. Go figure where my bias comes from :tongue:
Original post by Drunk Punx
You'd be unsurprised, trust me :h:
I don't watch the news nor does it interest me.

I work with my hands for a living, so whatever I say is going to be a typical working class spiel. That wall won't build itself.
One of the guys I've been working with recently knows a couple of bankers and what they do in their jobs, and he says that what I could earn in a year they could earn in a few months without the bonuses, and they spend most of their day sitting on their arses with a pen in one hand and a Subway in the other. Go figure where my bias comes from :tongue:


At least you admit you're just on the bandwagon - most people have watched a news article about it so think they are some kind of expert on the matter!
Bunch of self deluded middle class, liberal students, thinking they are the next Che Geuvera.
Reply 18
I think the should experience what Mubarak's regime was like first.

Send them to Burma.
Original post by No Man
I think the should experience what Mubarak's regime was like first.

Send them to Burma.


Mubarak was from Burma?

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