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TSR Med Students' Society Part III

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Original post by RollerBall
Acupuncture isn't so bad.


http://www.painjournalonline.com/article/S0304-3959(10)00689-5/abstract
Original post by RollerBall
Just out of interest, how much time off do you first years get off? For Christmas, Easter and Summer? As well as how much "private study time" you get before your end of years/module exams. Having a discussion with some other students and this came up.


I think we got 3 weeks, 3 weeks, and 3 1/2 months? Plus 2 weeks for exams.
Original post by Kinkerz
I felt similarly at the time. Now, although I have no inclination to go along with what CAM practitioners claim, I don't think it was so bad. I'm glad I'm more aware about what they do, so if and when I'm asked by a patient, I can competently answer. I don't really think I could have before for anything other than homeopathy.


There is evidence of theraputic effect for acupuncture, some GPs even do it as a specialist interest.
Original post by Wangers
There is evidence of theraputic effect for acupuncture, some GPs even do it as a specialist interest.


And some of the pain management anaesthetists prescribe homeopathic remedies, but that doesn't make it right.
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SMed
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http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html
Original post by Wangers
There is evidence of theraputic effect for acupuncture, some GPs even do it as a specialist interest.


Waste of NHS resources.
Original post by Becca-Sarah
And some of the pain management anaesthetists prescribe homeopathic remedies, but that doesn't make it right.


If it has some effect, we're onto a winner - one standard 100ml normal saline could be used to treat hundreds of thousands of patients - cheap as chips. I don't think we should fund the homeopathic hospital though. I haven't heard of students going there for placements, might happen, I don't know.
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SMed
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Giving placebos as treatment is unethical, unless they're told they are placebos. Interestingly, there was a study recently that found the placebo effect was still present even when the participants were told it was a placebo.
Original post by digitalis
Waste of NHS resources.


We should give people sugar placebos then instead of normal drugs, just packaged in druggy packaging. More expensive placebos work better than cheap placebos.

The point is, many things waste resources...
Original post by Becca-Sarah
And some of the pain management anaesthetists prescribe homeopathic remedies, but that doesn't make it right.


That is a bit different. Acupuncture has been shown to have a greater effect than the placebo effect whereas homeopathy has the same or less than the placebo effect. Accupuncture is really one of the only justifiable alternative treatments
Original post by Wangers
We should give people sugar placebos then instead of normal drugs, just packaged in druggy packaging. More expensive placebos work better than cheap placebos.

The point is, many things waste resources...

Surely the point is to cut down on wasting resources.
Original post by It could be lupus
That is a bit different. Acupuncture has been shown to have a greater effect than the placebo effect whereas homeopathy has the same or less than the placebo effect. Accupuncture is really one of the only justifiable alternative treatments


Not shown by any of the recent studies. See my link. Extract:

"The authors consider, therefore, that the benefits of acupuncture “resulted from nonspecific effects such as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm, or receiving a treatment believed to be helpful” [14]. This view was further strengthened by a recent randomized controlled trial in patients with osteoarthritis examining the effects of acupuncturists’ communication style [128]. Real and sham acupuncture were both more effective in reducing pain than no acupuncture at all, but real acupuncture was no better than sham. Moreover, a communication style generating high expectations in patients resulted in improved outcomes compared to a normal style, regardless of the type of acupuncture administered. In the primary studies included in the systematic reviews evaluated above, the risk of bias was often considerable. Adequately controlling for nonspecific effects in future is likely to demonstrate that acupuncture has no or few specific effects on pain"
Original post by SMed
Giving placebos as treatment is unethical, unless they're told they are placebos. Interestingly, there was a study recently that found the placebo effect was still present even when the participants were told it was a placebo.


I think a degree of flexibility might be justifiable here. Plenty of science has been done to people without their knowledge. The type of thing I'm suggesting would be fantastic for chronic resistant pain management where there is no known medically correctable pathology.
Original post by digitalis
Not shown by any of the recent studies. See my link. Extract:

"The authors consider, therefore, that the benefits of acupuncture “resulted from nonspecific effects such as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm, or receiving a treatment believed to be helpful” [14]. This view was further strengthened by a recent randomized controlled trial in patients with osteoarthritis examining the effects of acupuncturists’ communication style [128]. Real and sham acupuncture were both more effective in reducing pain than no acupuncture at all, but real acupuncture was no better than sham. Moreover, a communication style generating high expectations in patients resulted in improved outcomes compared to a normal style, regardless of the type of acupuncture administered. In the primary studies included in the systematic reviews evaluated above, the risk of bias was often considerable. Adequately controlling for nonspecific effects in future is likely to demonstrate that acupuncture has no or few specific effects on pain"


How do you do sham acupuncture?
Original post by Wangers
How do you do sham acupuncture?


Poke people with acupuncture needles in places that aren't in the "energy pathways" or whatever. Like literally poking someone with a needle lol.

I've personally seen a guy come in with a pneumothorax thanks to his acupuncturist!
Original post by Wangers
How do you do sham acupuncture?


Stick the needles in random places instead of the places you're supposed to put them? :dontknow:
Original post by digitalis
Not shown by any of the recent studies. See my link. Extract:

"The authors consider, therefore, that the benefits of acupuncture “resulted from nonspecific effects such as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm, or receiving a treatment believed to be helpful” [14]. This view was further strengthened by a recent randomized controlled trial in patients with osteoarthritis examining the effects of acupuncturists’ communication style [128]. Real and sham acupuncture were both more effective in reducing pain than no acupuncture at all, but real acupuncture was no better than sham. Moreover, a communication style generating high expectations in patients resulted in improved outcomes compared to a normal style, regardless of the type of acupuncture administered. In the primary studies included in the systematic reviews evaluated above, the risk of bias was often considerable. Adequately controlling for nonspecific effects in future is likely to demonstrate that acupuncture has no or few specific effects on pain"

Hmm strange. I can't remember which paper I was shown at a talk last term but the doctor was saying that recent studies showed that it had a greater effect than the placebo, though also said some other studies had shown otherwise.
Original post by digitalis


I stand corrected, I read an article in New Scientist years ago. I trust a scientific journal more though. What's your opinion on chiropractors?
Original post by It could be lupus
Hmm strange. I can't remember which paper I was shown at a talk last term but the doctor was saying that recent studies showed that it had a greater effect than the placebo, though also said some other studies had shown otherwise.


Yah, this was only published this month. Good lil article. On Science Direct
Original post by RollerBall
What's your opinion on chiropractors?


Quacks.

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