The Student Room Group

Do you think the Far Right will ever come to power in Europe again?

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Original post by Jackthevillain
I hope it does yes. I think an Eastern european country will be one of first to fall to us then a northern European country then in most of Europe a domino effect will take place. Then we can sort a lot of things left wing wont do.


Unlikely, given the expansionist nature of fascist regimes. All the nations around a fascist state will turn against it (and fascism itself) out of suspicion/fear.
Reply 41
Original post by Struggle

Original post by Struggle
How very gullible of you.
The Nazi's in Germany termed themselves 'National Socialists' to appease workers and thus gain more support. It was a strategy, just as it is a strategy to blame immigrants for lack of jobs.

To state Nazism is 'Far-Left' merely because they termed themselves 'National Socialists' shows how taken in you have been.

Nazism and Communism could not be more different, which is why Communists and Fascists hate each other. Fascism is about the government forming an alliance with big business. Fascism has consistently throughout history only ever occurred during times when the ruling class fear a Socialist Revolution. In other words, the businesses supported Fascism over Socialism in order to protect their material interests.


I'd say you are the one who is wrong in that regard.
The reason the Communists and the Fascists came to dislike each other is twofold.
Firstly, Nazism, Hitler's own brand of Fascism, was by nature, aggressive and sought dominance. Ideologically, the two ideals were opposed because Fascism viewed only certain individuals as equal, rather than [in theory] Communism which sought for all individuals to be equal. Nazism made the clear distinction that only those of 'pure' [Aryan] descent were worthy of equality, and that all others must be below. Saying that the Fascists were 'allied' with big business is another lie, Fascism used the coercive nature of government to USE business to achieve its own ends [Propaganda etc], and regulated it heavily, in order to force it to fit their political motives. Capitalism in its pure form is the free market, Fascism never ever promoted the free market.
Nazism was actually defined by a romanticized view of the working man, returning back to nature, living an idyllic, and comparatively, primitive lifestyle.
Reply 42
Original post by arabcnesbit

Original post by arabcnesbit
In a capitalist system there would be no (enforced) taxation, there would be no regulation, the state would have no say in the running of businesses.

In a corporatist system the state grants permission to corporations to function as long as they follow the rules set out by the government.

For instance they would have to abide by any regulations the state imposes, they would have to pay a fee (taxes) in order to keep their business going, they would have to follow any rules imposed at the whims of the state and if they do not, then their "license" to trade would be withdrawn and they would have their property confiscated "fines" or be imprisoned.

Which system does ours resemble the closest?


No, that is only one TYPE of capitalism; Laissez-faire [which is indeed, Capitalism in its purest form].
However even laissez-faire does not imply absence of taxation. A government can leave the free market to its own devices, that doesn't mean taxation cannot be involved. It simply becomes a more diluted form of Capitalism, and doesn't jump straight into another form of economic management.

It is a big jump to go from 'Free market with small-ish state' to 'Large state which manipulates privately owned corporations to their political desires, essentially coercing them into the state propaganda machine, and heavy regulation'.

This argument is a digression anyway, and is irrelevant to the argument. If we do indeed, live in a broadly corporatist society, then we are near the middle and to the authoritarian side, not the right. This implies that the far-right are NOT rising to prominence.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Ocassus
I suppose it does have elements of it, but the bailouts for example were only temporary solutions [AFAIK], and the government probably isn't intent on retaining those stocks.
These are all broadly elements of ideology though, and not economic system. For example, protectionism against poor nations isn't a facet of our economic system, it is a facet of a more 'compassionate' government [influenced by globalization and media etc etc].

I could go on.


I don't think I understand your point.

Who said that corporatism requires that the government retains these stocks? it doesn't. It only has to have very close ties with some businesses (which it does) and favour them at the expense of others (either foreign or domestic competitors). This whole idea of a "private-public partnership" is textbook corporatism.

And protectionism is not compassionate. It is based on jingoism and some weird nationalism*. "Our" jobs, etc.

*I say weird nationalism cos people often say how much they want to "help" third world countries. Here's a ****ing idea: stop preventing people from buying their goods and services (especially their services since labour is usually the only thing they have to offer). How about that? no charity or foreign aid is needed.
Original post by Rakas21
I personally veiw the 'third way' as just being pure nationalism/authoritarianism.


The "third way" was just a tool to try and reinvent socialism by trying to incorporate some sort of capitalistic features i.e. the wealth generating ones while trying to maintain or in most cases enhance the power and reach of the welfare state.

For example New Labour.
Reply 45
To answer the question, Fascism will only come about when the interests of the ruling class are at risk, or when they will gain from a Fascist state occuring. Like I said above, Fascism has only come about when the material interests of the ruling class were at risk. Ultimately, if 'Liberal Democracy' can still safely continue, the Ruling Class would probably always choose 'Liberal Democracy', as the Ruling Class would lose out more by forming an alliance with the Fascist Government.
Yes, but not to the same extent as Hitler/Mussolini.

The far right these days is more about ethnic minorities 'knowing their place' rather than full on mass murder and totalitarianism.
Reply 47
Original post by Struggle

Original post by Struggle
To answer the question, Fascism will only come about when the interests of the ruling class are at risk, or when they will gain from a Fascist state occuring. Like I said above, Fascism has only come about when the material interests of the ruling class were at risk. Ultimately, if 'Liberal Democracy' can still safely continue, the Ruling Class would probably always choose 'Liberal Democracy', as the Ruling Class would lose out more by forming an alliance with the Fascist Government.


You have made very broad statements with no evidence or reasons to back up your conclusions. You have also ignored my analysis of Socialism v Fascism and failed to explain how Fascism is more favorable to the rich entrepreneur, who will have his assets coerced, potentially against his will, for the government.
Reply 48
Hasn't it already? What would you call the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? Don't get hung up on 'trends' or 'cycles' of history: things do change.
Reply 49
Original post by Bourgeois

Original post by Bourgeois
I don't think I understand your point.

Who said that corporatism requires that the government retains these stocks? it doesn't. It only has to have very close ties with some businesses (which it does) and favour them at the expense of others (either foreign or domestic competitors). This whole idea of a "private-public partnership" is textbook corporatism.

And protectionism is not compassionate. It is based on jingoism and some weird nationalism*. "Our" jobs, etc.

*I say weird nationalism cos people often say how much they want to "help" third world countries. Here's a ****ing idea: stop preventing people from buying their goods and services (especially their services since labour is usually the only thing they have to offer). How about that? no charity or foreign aid is needed.


The government favors these specific, partly because of nationalistic pride [Element of corporatism], but also because politics and economics are so far intertwined, they need to take pains to safeguard economic prosperity.
Now, I am not arguing that we have drifted to the centre. As a libertarian, i would have been happy to see the banks that failed, fold [true capitalistic attitude]. However, because of the drift towards the centre [and to corporatism], New labour and the 'One Nation' Conservatives have adopted fusions between the two sides. And in that sense, we have become more corporatist. [That is not the point I am disputing though, the point i am disputing is that Fascism is an ideology of the far right].
Original post by Ocassus
No, that is only one TYPE of capitalism; Laissez-faire [which is indeed, Capitalism in its purest form].
However even laissez-faire does not imply absence of taxation. A government can leave the free market to its own devices, that doesn't mean taxation cannot be involved. It simply becomes a more diluted form of Capitalism, and doesn't jump straight into another form of economic management.

It is a big jump to go from 'Free market with small-ish state' to 'Large state which manipulates privately owned corporations to their political desires, essentially coercing them into the state propaganda machine, and heavy regulation'.

This argument is a digression anyway, and is irrelevant to the argument. If we do indeed, live in a broadly corporatist society, then we are near the middle and to the authoritarian side, not the right. This implies that the far-right are NOT rising to prominence.


In a capitalist system taxation is to be raised by voluntary contributions. Since this will only need to be enough for the police, the courts and the army it isn't quite as absurd as it may first appear.

What you're describing wouldn't be capitalism, it would be a form of minarchism.

Government spending is now over 47% of GDP, while the state controls nearly every aspect of our lives.

We are far closer to a Nazi state than to a free one.
Reply 51
Original post by Ocassus
You have made very broad statements with no evidence or reasons to back up your conclusions. You have also ignored my analysis of Socialism v Fascism and failed to explain how Fascism is more favorable to the rich entrepreneur, who will have his assets coerced, potentially against his will, for the government.

Socialism is the ideal of the end of the nation state, and the end of inequality. Fascism is centred around the strong nation-state, with centrally enforced hierarchy propping up the state ideology. They could not be more different.
Reply 52
Original post by arabcnesbit

Original post by arabcnesbit
In a capitalist system taxation is to be raised by voluntary contributions. Since this will only need to be enough for the police, the courts and the army it isn't quite as absurd as it may first appear.

What you're describing wouldn't be capitalism, it would be a form of minarchism.

Government spending is now over 47% of GDP, while the state controls nearly every aspect of our lives.

We are far closer to a Nazi state than to a free one.


That may be true, but that is not the point i am necessarily disputing. The point, as i mentioned above, that i am disputing is that Fascism is an ideology of the far right, rather than broadly central, borrowing ideas from different camps.
Reply 53
Original post by Acerbic

Original post by Acerbic
Socialism is the ideal of the end of the nation state, and the end of inequality. Fascism is centred around the strong nation-state, with centrally enforced hierarchy propping up the state ideology. They could not be more different.


I think you will find that is Marxism, which is the progression of the left from Capitalism to Socialism to communism to (left)anarchism.

In theory that is how it should be anyway, Stalin's dictatorship realised it needed a uniting factor for the country [to detract from its godawful situation], and so Soviet Russia enforced heavy nationalistic pride, and so drifted into authoritarianism.
I would also dispute that whilst the goal of the Marxist theory of progression might be a minimal state, in order to get there it must use a large state for a period of time to enforce that equality [and in so doing, become Authoritarian], and is therefore akin to Fascism in that progressive stage.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 54
Original post by darknessbehold
And FYI a MILLION people voted for the BNP in the european elections. That may be minority in the face of 61 million - but still a million is a pretty damn big number.


Not really. It's a tiny proportion of the electorate and people vote for parties in the EU elections that they wouldn't dream of voting in national elections. The BNP's overt patriotism and anti-EU stance will have also helped their cause.

If the BNP stood a serious chance of winning a national election, the majority of people in this country would go to the ballot box and vote for absolutely anyone else. In 2002, pitted against the Front National, Chirac won the French presidential election by an enormous land-side as the French came out in force to vote against the far-right.

I would eat my hat if the BNP were in power within the next 25 years.

Edit: Also, let's not get bogged down with the term far-right. It is commonly used to describe fascists and racist political parties and I do apologise if you feel that tarnishes your right wing views.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Ocassus
That may be true, but that is not the point i am necessarily disputing. The point, as i mentioned above, that i am disputing is that Fascism is an ideology of the far right, rather than broadly central, borrowing ideas from different camps.


Indeed. This was why I tried to separate the debate into an economic and a social one.

You can't say the nazi's were far right if you mean that to be economic liberalism and in this case you are correct in saying they would be centrist.

But when we describe the social policies, far left and far right are exactly the same, so the meaning is confused. Hitler and Stalin would have been great buddies as long as they didn't talk economics.
Reply 56
Original post by Ocassus
I'd say you are the one who is wrong in that regard.
The reason the Communists and the Fascists came to dislike each other is twofold.
Firstly, Nazism, Hitler's own brand of Fascism, was by nature, aggressive and sought dominance. Ideologically, the two ideals were opposed because Fascism viewed only certain individuals as equal, rather than [in theory] Communism which sought for all individuals to be equal. Nazism made the clear distinction that only those of 'pure' [Aryan] descent were worthy of equality, and that all others must be below. Saying that the Fascists were 'allied' with big business is another lie, Fascism used the coercive nature of government to USE business to achieve its own ends [Propaganda etc], and regulated it heavily, in order to force it to fit their political motives. Capitalism in its pure form is the free market, Fascism never ever promoted the free market.
Nazism was actually defined by a romanticized view of the working man, returning back to nature, living an idyllic, and comparatively, primitive lifestyle.


Before I respond, I am a Marxist.

I do not need a history lesson from you on Fascism.

Marxists oppose Fascism for many reasons. But first of all, the all too often paraphrased view that 'Communism is about equality' is very simplistic and misleading. Furthermore, Communism is only ever described as such by people who have not studied Marxism, or Dialectal and Historical Materialism.
Communism in short, is about the emancipation of the working class, and thus the abolition of class based society. It is about putting the economy into the hands of the people and and democratic planning of society, rather than seeking privatisation and therefore the control by people who have more money.

It takes months of study to understand Marxism. Anybody who thinks they understand Marxism because they read the 'Communist Manifesto' is lieing to you.

Ethnicity is only one part of Fascism. Fascism has absolutely no interest in liberating the working class. This is the fundamental difference between Communism and Fascism. The same goes for Communism and Capitalism.

Fascism is ultimately Capitalism in decay, as Lenin correctly described. This is why 'Fascism' has only come about when Capitalism was in severe crisis. Fascism helped to prevent a workers revolution, which is why the ruling class supported it. Ethnicity in Marxian terms is absolutely irrelevant. Marxists consider all workers to be utimately the same. Thus the quote; 'Workers of all countries unite'.

If you truly want to understand the difference between Marxism and Capitalism, which is what Fascism is but just at a higher stage. Then study Marxism, but take it more seriously than what most people do when they paraphrase; 'Communism is good in theory, but it doesn't work in practise', or 'Communism won't work because human nature won't allow it to work!'.

If you hear people summarize Communism\Marxism\Socialism as this; You can be sure they have not studied Marxism and do not know what they are talking about.
Reply 57
Just a thought, but wouldn't you agree that we need a government which has a clear vision, approach, values and goals than the current ones which slip and slide their way out of any decision and constantly change their principles and values when it suits them. If that means we need a pure left or pure right government then so be it. Not that I necessarily approve or either far left or far right but for goodness sake political leaders do need to be more clear don't you think?
Reply 58
Original post by arabcnesbit
In a capitalist system taxation is to be raised by voluntary contributions.


The argument that Capitalism is legitimate because people volunteer to work, is about as legitimate as saying child labour is legitimate merely because the child 'vounteered their labour'. It is not an argument.

If you truly care about this subject, watch; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlRoaFTHuE
Noam Chomsky rebukes the argument quite completely.
Original post by Struggle
Before I respond, I am a Marxist.

I do not need a history lesson from you on Fascism.

Marxists oppose Fascism for many reasons. But first of all, the all too often paraphrased view that 'Communism is about equality' is very simplistic and misleading. Furthermore, Communism is only ever described as such by people who have not studied Marxism, or Dialectal and Historical Materialism.
Communism in short, is about the emancipation of the working class, and thus the abolition of class based society. It is about putting the economy into the hands of the people and and democratic planning of society, rather than seeking privatisation and therefore the control by people who have more money.

It takes months of study to understand Marxism. Anybody who thinks they understand Marxism because they read the 'Communist Manifesto' is lieing to you.

Ethnicity is only one part of Fascism. Fascism has absolutely no interest in liberating the working class. This is the fundamental difference between Communism and Fascism. The same goes for Communism and Capitalism.

Fascism is ultimately Capitalism in decay, as Lenin correctly described. This is why 'Fascism' has only come about when Capitalism was in severe crisis. Fascism helped to prevent a workers revolution, which is why the ruling class supported it. Ethnicity in Marxian terms is absolutely irrelevant. Marxists consider all workers to be utimately the same. Thus the quote; 'Workers of all countries unite'.

If you truly want to understand the difference between Marxism and Capitalism, which is what Fascism is but just at a higher stage. Then study Marxism, but take it more seriously than what most people do when they paraphrase; 'Communism is good in theory, but it doesn't work in practise', or 'Communism won't work because human nature won't allow it to work!'.

If you hear people summarize Communism\Marxism\Socialism as this; You can be sure they have not studied Marxism and do not know what they are talking about.


Interesting. Do you think the problem with marxism is that it is too complicated? The greatest ideas of humanity have always been the simplest. Whether it be a mathematical formula or a political ideology.

The attitude of many marxists that if you criticise it, it is merely because you don't understand it, becomes very tiresome.

Why not simplify it, thus making your ideology far more powerful?

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