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Tory liars

So much for only 'a selected amount of universities will able to charge £9,000"

20 already confirmed to be charging £9,000 per annum... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12880840

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Reply 1
Avatar for d0000dle
d0000dle
8
Surely no one was fooled by that?

Of course most universities would charge £9000 a year, why would they not when they are facing major cuts, more home students and less foreign ones and the 'elitist' reputations it could possibly develop. No university wants to appear second rate because they are not charging the top amount like others, or that they have less money to spend per student. Sure they have to put a plan into place for less well off students, but that's not much of an issue when most, if not all universities, have one in place already. I cannot see why university would be denied the right to charge this amount because of their poor student proposals - how much realistically can the government expect universities to pay out when social mobility is not their responsibility.

Frankly that was a stupid and naive belief on the part of the Tories and it's even more ridiculous if anyone actually believed it that it would happen.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Lewis :D
So much for only 'a selected amount of universities will able to charge £9,000"

20 already confirmed to be charging £9,000 per annum... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12880840


We are yet to see the end of this story.

The government didn't say "selected" it said that "exceptionally" universities would be able to charge more than £6000.

Universities have not had enough self-discipline to set sensible fee levels having regard to the cash available. It is a bit like councils in the early days of Maggie. When local government funding was cut, rather than cut expenditure, rates were hiked and the government was forced to introduce rate capping.

There is not the slightest chance the government will fund universities on the scale of these fees.

The "wait and see" question is what the government is going to do about it.

It seems to me there are these possibilities:-

1 The government re-allocates places from "bad" boys to ""good" boys. This is what the government is currently discussing. I don't think that is viable. I don't see that the cheaper universities could expand sufficiently in the short time available.

2 OFFA sets such daunting Access conditions that it is unrealistic or uneconomic for universities to comply. As a result the top universities abandon £9K fees in favour of £6K with no strings and the lesser universities have to do likewise for fear of being undercut.

3 The government legislates to give OFFA or HEFCE power to set fee levels

4 The government calls in the VCs and threatens them with legislation unless they think again. The VCs go away with their tails between their legs and sort out a different fee scheme based on the available cash.

Any other ideas?
20 out of 100+ isn't exactly all of them, is it?
Original post by nulli tertius

Any other ideas?


Just one: limit the amount available for student loans (which is inevitable anyway, though the universities don't seem to think they are in the same financial boat as the rest of us) to what the government can afford (i.e. around £6,000 per student or a little more). Universities will then have to take fewer students or provide additional loans themselves.

You are quite right that this matter has not yet played out. The government has said that universities will only be allowed to charge fees of £9,000 in "exceptional circumstances", which the minister said might mean if they had high teaching costs, or if a university was offering an intensive two-year course. This doesn't give them carte blanche to do as they like up to that limit and they have to seek approval for any amount over £6,000.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 5
Avatar for jcockerill1
jcockerill1
They've not all announced what they'll be charging for 2012. It is most likely that 90% will charge near enough the full amount, and only a handful won't do, in order to try and get more students, or appeal to a different target market. I could have guessed it to go this way, though.
Reply 6
Avatar for spyka
spyka
6
Original post by Aspiringlawstudent
20 out of 100+ isn't exactly all of them, is it?


It's 20 out of 22 that have said what they plan to charge. And of the other two, one is a specialist university focused on teaching (with <2k students) and the other is Leeds Met. Plus, both are still charging above the £6k figure.
(edited 13 years ago)
They also said they would tax the rich; look how quickly they backed out of that one!
Original post by nulli tertius

Any other ideas?


Stop people going to University to take pointless degrees? Saves the taxpayer money.
Not surprising really. Anyone with half a brain could have said this was going to happen.

And while it is right that the government (well, OFFA) has a say, from what has been said recentely, the only restrcitions is that you ensure fair access for poorer students. That is way too vague too actually mean anything.

Look to what has happened a few years ago. The £3k max was brought in, with the government (and OFFA) saying that only those who institutuions who showed they were "widening access" could charge more than £1500. Pretty much everyone charged £3k. The same will happen again.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 10
Avatar for Lozle
Lozle
Well tbh Look at there history.

All for the ritch none for the poor.

I wish i could vote them out =/
I'm not sure how Universities such as Bishop Grosseteste can justify charging such a significant amount, even if it is (marginally) below the £9,000 figure.
Original post by FlobberDobber
Stop people going to University to take pointless degrees? Saves the taxpayer money.


I mean any other ideas which the government might realistically choose to adopt in order to keep its wallet closed, not any other idea you might have for reorganising higher education.

Original post by WelshBluebird


Look to what has happened a few years ago. The £3k max was brought in, with the government (and OFFA) saying that only those who institutuions who showed they were "widening access" could charge more than £1500. Pretty much everyone charged £3k. The same will happen again.


The difference between this and a few years ago was that the government was previously prepared to lend £3K across the board. It isn't willing to lend £9K to all and sundry.
Original post by nulli tertius

The difference between this and a few years ago was that the government was previously prepared to lend £3K across the board. It isn't willing to lend £9K to all and sundry.


We'll see. If they weren't willing to lend £9k accross the board, then why set that as the maximum figure? Were they really that naive to think the most unis wouldn't try to charge that?
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Lewis :D
So much for only 'a selected amount of universities will able to charge £9,000"

20 already confirmed to be charging £9,000 per annum... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12880840


Those claims were made in an independant report commissioned by a Labour government, which in turn would have implemented the same recommendations had they stayed in power.

I don't really see how that makes the Tories the liars.
True, it's the lib dems who are the liars, saying they will oppose any rise in student tuition fees and promptly voting to triple them
Original post by mistermeowingtons
I'm not sure how Universities such as Bishop Grosseteste can justify charging such a significant amount, even if it is (marginally) below the £9,000 figure.


It depends how price sensitive its students are.

Bearing in mind virtually all its students will be wanting to be teachers and it is good at placing its students in teaching jobs, what is the alternative for them?

For the most part these will be students either without stellar A levels or with severe geographical constraints.

Can you find them anything cheaper or can you find them anything better (better here meaning more likely to get them a job in their chosen career given the entry qualifications they have)?
Reply 17
Avatar for wdywuk
wdywuk
9
One other outcome that has been whispered at high level is to remove all funding for Foundation Year students and pass them onto local FE's
Original post by WelshBluebird
We'll see. If they weren't willing to lend £9k accross the board, then why set that as the maximum figure? Were they really that naive to think the most unis wouldn't try to charge that?


When the Tories were last in office, it was a cosy club. Everything was stitched up in the Committee of Vice-Chancellors. The Russell Group was originally a secret group to win the arguments in that committee.

I think they thought a tariff would be agreed behind the scenes. They knew the average would be more than £6K. They budgeted for that and they wanted that, because £6K had no Access strings at all. I don't think it occurred to them that the universities would totally ignore what they said about the available money pot and just adopt a "beggar my neighbour" approach.

It had all been announced in a low key way in November but by January Willetts was bellowing through a foghorn. It made no difference. You will recall that Clegg slapped down Cambridge when they were the first to announce because they didn't even make a pretence of this being subject to the OFFA process.
Make Universities bid for funding of courses based on the excellence, importance and worthiness of the curriculums they want to teach. Have an independant body assess these factors and dish out funding accordingly.

Seriously, **** mickey mouse degrees and 10,000 "Computer Games Design" and "Fashion Studies" students competing for 6 jobs.

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