On the Graduate Scrapheap - 23 with a 1:1
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Original post by MTR_10
Actually I do have a job.
I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not prepared to sacrifice my beliefs and values for the sake of money.
You obviously haven't been to many graduate interviews. Some of the people who are on graduate programmes are there not because of what they have done or how hard they have worked but because their relative/ friend has put them there. Often through doing very little but knowing the right person. Thus defeating the philosophy of hard work and reward. Especially in this country, people are so quick to judge. I've witnessed in my job, managers dismissing CVs and applications based on the name of the individual or their nationality. Or bringing in their friend who is quite frankly lazy, useless and unreliable. oh but hes still there because of who he is.
Look it's sad but true. This world has lost its moral compass and your willingness to deny it (or turning a blind eye to it) just makes things a lot worse.
You see it everywhere, people getting jobs is no longer based on merit just as earning a lot of money is not in line with working hard, but exploiting the system. Hence the lack of values and integrity. The fact that somebody can get a good job based not on merit but other means goes against everything the government has encouraged. Study hard, go to university, get experience and prepare a quality application. All of this is now a waste like the OP is saying. They might as well just say lose your values and ignore what is right and what is wrong and just walk over anybody who gets in your way and milk the system for everything you can. Is that the type of society you would encourage? Or the type of society you would want your children growing up in? (btw those questions are not directly aimed at you. More of a general rant at the way this country is!)
err no...employers encourage this type of behaviour more than anyone. You obviously have no idea how business works in this country. Either that or you are working under the ignorance of a corporate umbrella??!!
By the way I'm saying a lot of times this is the case. Obviously not all of the time, but a lot of the time it is.
I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not prepared to sacrifice my beliefs and values for the sake of money.
You obviously haven't been to many graduate interviews. Some of the people who are on graduate programmes are there not because of what they have done or how hard they have worked but because their relative/ friend has put them there. Often through doing very little but knowing the right person. Thus defeating the philosophy of hard work and reward. Especially in this country, people are so quick to judge. I've witnessed in my job, managers dismissing CVs and applications based on the name of the individual or their nationality. Or bringing in their friend who is quite frankly lazy, useless and unreliable. oh but hes still there because of who he is.
Look it's sad but true. This world has lost its moral compass and your willingness to deny it (or turning a blind eye to it) just makes things a lot worse.
You see it everywhere, people getting jobs is no longer based on merit just as earning a lot of money is not in line with working hard, but exploiting the system. Hence the lack of values and integrity. The fact that somebody can get a good job based not on merit but other means goes against everything the government has encouraged. Study hard, go to university, get experience and prepare a quality application. All of this is now a waste like the OP is saying. They might as well just say lose your values and ignore what is right and what is wrong and just walk over anybody who gets in your way and milk the system for everything you can. Is that the type of society you would encourage? Or the type of society you would want your children growing up in? (btw those questions are not directly aimed at you. More of a general rant at the way this country is!)
err no...employers encourage this type of behaviour more than anyone. You obviously have no idea how business works in this country. Either that or you are working under the ignorance of a corporate umbrella??!!
By the way I'm saying a lot of times this is the case. Obviously not all of the time, but a lot of the time it is.
This post is a bit of an exaggeration but there's truth in it. People get jobs on merit or through patronage. When it comes to internships, patronage plays a bigger part with getting initial opportunities. Generally the bigger the employer the more the scope for patronage, and you will probably find in any large organisation there are people being 'carried' by others. I remember during the bad times of 2008 and 2009, working at a place which had a 'recruitment freeze' and we were forced to let someone go who was really good, who was on a temporary contract. Then we got word that the Chief Exec's niece, who was an American girl on a gap yah and wanting to come over to the UK, wanted a job for 6 months and we were told to take her on, pay her, and as this would have to come out of our budget we would have to make additional savings to afford her which meant we had to cut some of the things we did. So this girl came, she was nice enough but a bit of an OMG like SO TEEN MOVIE girl, people tried not to resent her, but everybody resented the fact that she had been imposed on us in a tight situation because of nepotism and the word of the Chief Exec....when we had been forced to let a good worker on a temporary contract go shortly before, because "the headcount had to drop".
Now if this was a small business with 15 staff I don't know if they'd have been as willing to have a weak link in there. Also, even in a big organisation, when the economy is going well and there is a lot of hiring, you don't notice the patronage as much, eg a firm might take on 20 interns and 8 of them be through 'contacts'. The next year they might take on 8 interns and 7 of them are through 'contacts'!
Having said that there are many people who maybe get a bit lucky getting an internship because they had a family contact in the business, and are capable, and get a good university grade, so that internship sets them on the way. It's not that they've been unfairly given a job they aren't up to, they've been given the chance. Without that they would have been just another graduate without an internship.
But in the competitive fields, a harsh fact is that when it comes to applying for internships in second year, the ones who have contacts or are at Oxbridge/LSE are at a significant advantage over the ones who have neither. Then when it comes to applying for grad schemes, its even harder, because its a battle between Oxbridge/LSE graduates with an internship on their CV, against non Oxbridge grads without an internship. The odds aren't good for the latter group. But I stress I am talking about trying to get in think tanks and small consultancies and the like.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
This post is a bit of an exaggeration but there's truth in it. People get jobs on merit or through patronage. When it comes to internships, patronage plays a bigger part with getting initial opportunities. Generally the bigger the employer the more the scope for patronage, and you will probably find in any large organisation there are people being 'carried' by others. I remember during the bad times of 2008 and 2009, working at a place which had a 'recruitment freeze' and we were forced to let someone go who was really good, who was on a temporary contract. Then we got word that the Chief Exec's niece, who was an American girl on a gap yah and wanting to come over to the UK, wanted a job for 6 months and we were told to take her on, pay her, and as this would have to come out of our budget we would have to make additional savings to afford her which meant we had to cut some of the things we did. So this girl came, she was nice enough but a bit of an OMG like SO TEEN MOVIE girl, people tried not to resent her, but everybody resented the fact that she had been imposed on us in a tight situation because of nepotism and the word of the Chief Exec....when we had been forced to let a good worker on a temporary contract go shortly before, because "the headcount had to drop".
Now if this was a small business with 15 staff I don't know if they'd have been as willing to have a weak link in there. Also, even in a big organisation, when the economy is going well and there is a lot of hiring, you don't notice the patronage as much, eg a firm might take on 20 interns and 8 of them be through 'contacts'. The next year they might take on 8 interns and 7 of them are through 'contacts'!
Having said that there are many people who maybe get a bit lucky getting an internship because they had a family contact in the business, and are capable, and get a good university grade, so that internship sets them on the way. It's not that they've been unfairly given a job they aren't up to, they've been given the chance. Without that they would have been just another graduate without an internship.
But in the competitive fields, a harsh fact is that when it comes to applying for internships in second year, the ones who have contacts or are at Oxbridge/LSE are at a significant advantage over the ones who have neither. Then when it comes to applying for grad schemes, its even harder, because its a battle between Oxbridge/LSE graduates with an internship on their CV, against non Oxbridge grads without an internship. The odds aren't good for the latter group. But I stress I am talking about trying to get in think tanks and small consultancies and the like.
Now if this was a small business with 15 staff I don't know if they'd have been as willing to have a weak link in there. Also, even in a big organisation, when the economy is going well and there is a lot of hiring, you don't notice the patronage as much, eg a firm might take on 20 interns and 8 of them be through 'contacts'. The next year they might take on 8 interns and 7 of them are through 'contacts'!
Having said that there are many people who maybe get a bit lucky getting an internship because they had a family contact in the business, and are capable, and get a good university grade, so that internship sets them on the way. It's not that they've been unfairly given a job they aren't up to, they've been given the chance. Without that they would have been just another graduate without an internship.
But in the competitive fields, a harsh fact is that when it comes to applying for internships in second year, the ones who have contacts or are at Oxbridge/LSE are at a significant advantage over the ones who have neither. Then when it comes to applying for grad schemes, its even harder, because its a battle between Oxbridge/LSE graduates with an internship on their CV, against non Oxbridge grads without an internship. The odds aren't good for the latter group. But I stress I am talking about trying to get in think tanks and small consultancies and the like.
I agree that I did perhaps go a little far with my post. It was more of a rant at the unfairness of the system more than anything.
You summed it all up quite well though.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
This post is a bit of an exaggeration but there's truth in it. People get jobs on merit or through patronage. When it comes to internships, patronage plays a bigger part with getting initial opportunities. Generally the bigger the employer the more the scope for patronage, and you will probably find in any large organisation there are people being 'carried' by others. I remember during the bad times of 2008 and 2009, working at a place which had a 'recruitment freeze' and we were forced to let someone go who was really good, who was on a temporary contract. Then we got word that the Chief Exec's niece, who was an American girl on a gap yah and wanting to come over to the UK, wanted a job for 6 months and we were told to take her on, pay her, and as this would have to come out of our budget we would have to make additional savings to afford her which meant we had to cut some of the things we did. So this girl came, she was nice enough but a bit of an OMG like SO TEEN MOVIE girl, people tried not to resent her, but everybody resented the fact that she had been imposed on us in a tight situation because of nepotism and the word of the Chief Exec....when we had been forced to let a good worker on a temporary contract go shortly before, because "the headcount had to drop".
Now if this was a small business with 15 staff I don't know if they'd have been as willing to have a weak link in there. Also, even in a big organisation, when the economy is going well and there is a lot of hiring, you don't notice the patronage as much, eg a firm might take on 20 interns and 8 of them be through 'contacts'. The next year they might take on 8 interns and 7 of them are through 'contacts'!
Having said that there are many people who maybe get a bit lucky getting an internship because they had a family contact in the business, and are capable, and get a good university grade, so that internship sets them on the way. It's not that they've been unfairly given a job they aren't up to, they've been given the chance. Without that they would have been just another graduate without an internship.
But in the competitive fields, a harsh fact is that when it comes to applying for internships in second year, the ones who have contacts or are at Oxbridge/LSE are at a significant advantage over the ones who have neither. Then when it comes to applying for grad schemes, its even harder, because its a battle between Oxbridge/LSE graduates with an internship on their CV, against non Oxbridge grads without an internship. The odds aren't good for the latter group. But I stress I am talking about trying to get in think tanks and small consultancies and the like.
Now if this was a small business with 15 staff I don't know if they'd have been as willing to have a weak link in there. Also, even in a big organisation, when the economy is going well and there is a lot of hiring, you don't notice the patronage as much, eg a firm might take on 20 interns and 8 of them be through 'contacts'. The next year they might take on 8 interns and 7 of them are through 'contacts'!
Having said that there are many people who maybe get a bit lucky getting an internship because they had a family contact in the business, and are capable, and get a good university grade, so that internship sets them on the way. It's not that they've been unfairly given a job they aren't up to, they've been given the chance. Without that they would have been just another graduate without an internship.
But in the competitive fields, a harsh fact is that when it comes to applying for internships in second year, the ones who have contacts or are at Oxbridge/LSE are at a significant advantage over the ones who have neither. Then when it comes to applying for grad schemes, its even harder, because its a battle between Oxbridge/LSE graduates with an internship on their CV, against non Oxbridge grads without an internship. The odds aren't good for the latter group. But I stress I am talking about trying to get in think tanks and small consultancies and the like.
There must be some truth in the post...I say some because if it is completely true then nothing can be more demoralising than this....I got nothing to say if I lost to applicants from Oxbridge/LSE but to someone via contacts and put there with no interest in the field....may as well not bother with education and try to get into contact with the CEO/CFO or whoever can have say in a organisation....I'm not saying all people who got in via contacts are stupid but things like this really should be individually assessed.
I'm sorry but I am also one of the many that is applying for grad schemes and to hear about this is not right....organisations should recruit who they think can truely help the company and not just place people there for the sake of it!
Original post by novadragon849
There must be some truth in the post...I say some because if it is completely true then nothing can be more demoralising than this....I got nothing to say if I lost to applicants from Oxbridge/LSE but to someone via contacts and put there with no interest in the field....may as well not bother with education and try to get into contact with the CEO/CFO or whoever can have say in a organisation....I'm not saying all people who got in via contacts are stupid but things like this really should be individually assessed.
I'm sorry but I am also one of the many that is applying for grad schemes and to hear about this is not right....organisations should recruit who they think can truely help the company and not just place people there for the sake of it!
I'm sorry but I am also one of the many that is applying for grad schemes and to hear about this is not right....organisations should recruit who they think can truely help the company and not just place people there for the sake of it!
I suppose from the company's point of view there is an element of 'vetting' when they are appointing someone through a contact. If its one of the senior manager's nephews, then you assume that the senior manager wouldn't let him come in if he was a complete idiot, and he is sort of 'responsible' for him. And you also think maybe there will be some loyalty there. Otherwise choosing a random intern is a bit of a gamble, you really don't know what you're getting.
At companies with big HR departments eg the Big 4, they can run proper internship recruitment programmes where you have to apply and be assessed basically in the same way as their graduate recruitment (which is why they offer jobs straight away to the ones who are good). But for smaller organisations they don't have big HR departments and that's where the HR/recruitment type issues are a nuisance. A lot of the time careers departments will give you advice such as "most jobs are not advertised, its up to you to be proactive". This is fair enough - but you have to be willing to accept that from many employers' points of view, you will be viewed as a nuisance unless you have something special to prove otherwise. Imagine the manager who is already overworked as it is, who is trying to get through his intray, and gets hundreds of CVs emailed or posted to him from graduates wanting work experience or a job afterwards. Unless he is actively recruiting at the time, this is just extra 'noise' in his job. Most of them will be the same story, I'm a student at a Russell Group uni, I'm on for a 2:1, I do some ECs, I got AAB at A level. He can either spend ages of time which he doesn't have, deliberating over who is best, to make it a fair decision, or when one of the partners gives him a call and says "my nephew Rupert is looking for an internship this summer, he's doing Modern History at Bristol, on for a 2:1 and...." that's when he can just say "sure, we'll take him, that solves my problem" and then he can just have a standard response to all the others "thanks for your interest but we are already committed to interns".
I had to laugh when one of my mates from uni, who was a good laugh but one of those ridiculously uninformed right-wingers who was like some of the Tory trolls on here, scrap the NHS, cut all benefits, ban left wing parties etc, who just about scraped a 2:1 on his degree, managed to pull an internal contact to get himself a job as a "policy advisor" for some major regional development organisation. I wonder how seriously a 21 year old can get taken, giving "policy advice" to businesses and people who have been in business for 20-30 years.....
Original post by Clip
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Slowhand87 - you might be a really decent guy who was just a bit lazy or distracted during your A-levels, and has been trying ever since to make up for it. I don't see why that should (in isolation) be any barrier to getting a job.
However, my strong feeling is that the way you see yourself and put yourself across is not attractive to employers. Like I said, in person you might be great. On this forum, you come across as short-tempered, ignorant and a most unsympathetic character.
I don't think it's nice to expose anyone to ridicule, and that's not the purpose of this - the winning formula is that you get a job. If you do it your way, you get to tell everyone on TSR that they are mugs. If you take some advice (rather than just refuse to believe it) what's the harm? More rejections?
Half the people here seem to think that your problem is applications. Why don't you put down your answers to a couple of standard questions? If you've made 40 applications, I'm sure you have the answers ready to cut 'n' paste.
Q1 : Are there are any important mitigating reasons why you feel that the exam results you have listed do not fully reflect your abilities?
Q2 : How do you spend your spare time?
Q3 : What do you do best?
Q4 : Is there anything else you would like to include in support of your application?
Please. Indulge me.
Slowhand87 - you might be a really decent guy who was just a bit lazy or distracted during your A-levels, and has been trying ever since to make up for it. I don't see why that should (in isolation) be any barrier to getting a job.
However, my strong feeling is that the way you see yourself and put yourself across is not attractive to employers. Like I said, in person you might be great. On this forum, you come across as short-tempered, ignorant and a most unsympathetic character.
I don't think it's nice to expose anyone to ridicule, and that's not the purpose of this - the winning formula is that you get a job. If you do it your way, you get to tell everyone on TSR that they are mugs. If you take some advice (rather than just refuse to believe it) what's the harm? More rejections?
Half the people here seem to think that your problem is applications. Why don't you put down your answers to a couple of standard questions? If you've made 40 applications, I'm sure you have the answers ready to cut 'n' paste.
Q1 : Are there are any important mitigating reasons why you feel that the exam results you have listed do not fully reflect your abilities?
Q2 : How do you spend your spare time?
Q3 : What do you do best?
Q4 : Is there anything else you would like to include in support of your application?
Please. Indulge me.
What I say openly on this forum and discuss with prospective employers is quite different. TSR is not a forum for applying for jobs, rather discussing the current negatives and injustices of the jobs market.
I haven't rejected any advice on this thread, actually what many posters have written makes a huge amount of sense, I try and tailor any applications to the employer in question so do not copy and paste. Most applications only require factual data, CV and maybe a few answers to questions.
In terms of your questions
1. I have no excuses, I just did not apply myself and vastly underachieved.
2. Work, Play Sport, Travel..usual stuff
3. In terms of a job role?
4. I believe that my previous work experience and the skills that I have developed would be a bonus.
To correct a inaccuracy about my posts, I DO NOT believe I have the devine right for a job and agree that there are many exceptional candidates out there. What annoys me is that many of these companies will not even offer me an interview which is where I believe I can really sell myself.
I understand that when receiving many applications, some filtering will exist. However there seems to be a complete lack of sense by some employers (First, MSc, Work Experience..Why not at least see what I have to say) If then I get rejected then fair enough.
Can you really make an informed judgement about someone by some text and exam grades which were taken 6 years ago?
Original post by PALLO
The fact that you have spelt "their" incorrectly several times now screams out that the applications that you send out ought to be proof-read
I think what is written quickly in forums and what is produced for applications and professional documents differs quite considerably.
So playing the spelling card is quite infantile, how about saying something productive or not at all.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by slowhand87
I think what is written quickly in forums and what is produced for applications and professional documents differs quite considerably.
So playing the spelling card is quite infantile, how about saying something productive or not at all.
So playing the spelling card is quite infantile, how about saying something productive or not at all.
Well actually, it is constructive advice, as you have made the same mistake more than once. I would let you off if you had done it once, but you haven't. So take it on the chin.
As for further constructive advice, has anyone else every looked over your apps? Anyone in a professional capacity for instance who may be able to offer further guidance? We have not had the great pleasure of reading any of them to offer any other constructive advice except the token "Chin up... its tough out there... things will get better" which may in fact take much longer than people think.
Original post by slowhand87
What I say openly on this forum and discuss with prospective employers is quite different. TSR is not a forum for applying for jobs, rather discussing the current negatives and injustices of the jobs market.
I haven't rejected any advice on this thread, actually what many posters have written makes a huge amount of sense, I try and tailor any applications to the employer in question so do not copy and paste. Most applications only require factual data, CV and maybe a few answers to questions.
In terms of your questions
1. I have no excuses, I just did not apply myself and vastly underachieved.
2. Work, Play Sport, Travel..usual stuff
3. In terms of a job role?
4. I believe that my previous work experience and the skills that I have developed would be a bonus.
To correct a inaccuracy about my posts, I DO NOT believe I have the devine right for a job and agree that there are many exceptional candidates out there. What annoys me is that many of these companies will not even offer me an interview which is where I believe I can really sell myself.
I understand that when receiving many applications, some filtering will exist. However there seems to be a complete lack of sense by some employers (First, MSc, Work Experience..Why not at least see what I have to say) If then I get rejected then fair enough.
Can you really make an informed judgement about someone by some text and exam grades which were taken 6 years ago?
I haven't rejected any advice on this thread, actually what many posters have written makes a huge amount of sense, I try and tailor any applications to the employer in question so do not copy and paste. Most applications only require factual data, CV and maybe a few answers to questions.
In terms of your questions
1. I have no excuses, I just did not apply myself and vastly underachieved.
2. Work, Play Sport, Travel..usual stuff
3. In terms of a job role?
4. I believe that my previous work experience and the skills that I have developed would be a bonus.
To correct a inaccuracy about my posts, I DO NOT believe I have the devine right for a job and agree that there are many exceptional candidates out there. What annoys me is that many of these companies will not even offer me an interview which is where I believe I can really sell myself.
I understand that when receiving many applications, some filtering will exist. However there seems to be a complete lack of sense by some employers (First, MSc, Work Experience..Why not at least see what I have to say) If then I get rejected then fair enough.
Can you really make an informed judgement about someone by some text and exam grades which were taken 6 years ago?
Yes - you can make an informed judgement about someone on A-levels and Uni grades - poor grades show a lack of focus or "issues" aged 18 - 23.
It makes perfect sense to stream on those that is why they do - how on earth could they get through all the applications otherwise - some grad jobs get 1000+ applications per post! - They must be fair to all and take into account everyone has done different a-levels, and gone to different universities.
It will all be meaningless if people could re-take endlessly.
Retail work is NOT going to make you stand out as the best candidate for the role - its a moron job. At least doing admin for an accountants or solicitors would get you a professional reference..
IF all you got to say about work is PC world (or whatever one you worked in) then its going to look crap against anyone else who may have even just done 2 weeks at a decent firm and written some blag down - you need relevant work experience.
Good luck - you'll get there in the end - just keep working to add value to your applications...
OP to summarise:
- Forget graduate schemes, or at least look for the ones that have minimal UCAS tarrifs.
- Forget playing the academic card. Although having a 1st is something to be proud off!
- Dont bother with redoing your alevels. Most graduate schemes specifically ask for graduates who have done well at first attempt.
- Target small to medium size companies. Knock up relevant work experience. Even if that means working for nothing.
- Build a NETWORK. That means hanging around with other established engineers. There is an old saying and it is true in my experience:
"It is not what you know, it is WHO you know".
Know many people who are less academically able then you who have got into decent companies due to having a connection within them.
And you will be OK.
- Forget graduate schemes, or at least look for the ones that have minimal UCAS tarrifs.
- Forget playing the academic card. Although having a 1st is something to be proud off!
- Dont bother with redoing your alevels. Most graduate schemes specifically ask for graduates who have done well at first attempt.
- Target small to medium size companies. Knock up relevant work experience. Even if that means working for nothing.
- Build a NETWORK. That means hanging around with other established engineers. There is an old saying and it is true in my experience:
"It is not what you know, it is WHO you know".
Know many people who are less academically able then you who have got into decent companies due to having a connection within them.
And you will be OK.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by MTR_10
Actually I do have a job.
I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not prepared to sacrifice my beliefs and values for the sake of money.
You obviously haven't been to many graduate interviews. Some of the people who are on graduate programmes are there not because of what they have done or how hard they have worked but because their relative/ friend has put them there. Often through doing very little but knowing the right person. Thus defeating the philosophy of hard work and reward. Especially in this country, people are so quick to judge. I've witnessed in my job, managers dismissing CVs and applications based on the name of the individual or their nationality. Or bringing in their friend who is quite frankly lazy, useless and unreliable. oh but hes still there because of who he is.
Look it's sad but true. This world has lost its moral compass and your willingness to deny it (or turning a blind eye to it) just makes things a lot worse.
You see it everywhere, people getting jobs is no longer based on merit just as earning a lot of money is not in line with working hard, but exploiting the system. Hence the lack of values and integrity. The fact that somebody can get a good job based not on merit but other means goes against everything the government has encouraged. Study hard, go to university, get experience and prepare a quality application. All of this is now a waste like the OP is saying. They might as well just say lose your values and ignore what is right and what is wrong and just walk over anybody who gets in your way and milk the system for everything you can. Is that the type of society you would encourage? Or the type of society you would want your children growing up in? (btw those questions are not directly aimed at you. More of a general rant at the way this country is!)
err no...employers encourage this type of behaviour more than anyone. You obviously have no idea how business works in this country. Either that or you are working under the ignorance of a corporate umbrella??!!
By the way I'm saying a lot of times this is the case. Obviously not all of the time, but a lot of the time it is.
I'm well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. But I'm not prepared to sacrifice my beliefs and values for the sake of money.
You obviously haven't been to many graduate interviews. Some of the people who are on graduate programmes are there not because of what they have done or how hard they have worked but because their relative/ friend has put them there. Often through doing very little but knowing the right person. Thus defeating the philosophy of hard work and reward. Especially in this country, people are so quick to judge. I've witnessed in my job, managers dismissing CVs and applications based on the name of the individual or their nationality. Or bringing in their friend who is quite frankly lazy, useless and unreliable. oh but hes still there because of who he is.
Look it's sad but true. This world has lost its moral compass and your willingness to deny it (or turning a blind eye to it) just makes things a lot worse.
You see it everywhere, people getting jobs is no longer based on merit just as earning a lot of money is not in line with working hard, but exploiting the system. Hence the lack of values and integrity. The fact that somebody can get a good job based not on merit but other means goes against everything the government has encouraged. Study hard, go to university, get experience and prepare a quality application. All of this is now a waste like the OP is saying. They might as well just say lose your values and ignore what is right and what is wrong and just walk over anybody who gets in your way and milk the system for everything you can. Is that the type of society you would encourage? Or the type of society you would want your children growing up in? (btw those questions are not directly aimed at you. More of a general rant at the way this country is!)
err no...employers encourage this type of behaviour more than anyone. You obviously have no idea how business works in this country. Either that or you are working under the ignorance of a corporate umbrella??!!
By the way I'm saying a lot of times this is the case. Obviously not all of the time, but a lot of the time it is.
I'm not saying the bits in bold don't happen - of course they do. It's a bit like how MagicNMedicine outlines it, and I don't think that kind of thing is easy to get rid of. It's just simpler for employers. What I take issue with is your suggestion, elsewhere in that post, that anyone who manages to get a graduate job must have lied, manipulated and cheated his way into it. It's offensive, if nothing else.
You do not have to sacrifice your values and beliefs to get a job! Geez. And phrases like "the world has lost its moral compass" are rather overblown, too. I don't "turn a blind eye to it"; what would you have me do about it, exactly? My boyfriend got an internship through contacts - but if you'd been given an opportunity through a contact, wouldn't you take it? I was a bit annoyed at the time because I'd spent forever applying to internships and been rejected, while he just walked into something, but I didn't begrudge him taking it because that's what anyone would do. I've had a handful of phone/"proper" interviews and been to two assessment centres, which admittedly isn't loads, but even if I'd been to more I fail to see how that would make me (or you) able to deduce the level of nepotism across different companies.
"Getting jobs is no longer based on merit ... Study hard, go to university, get experience and prepare a quality application. All of this is now a waste" - just silly. Yes, there are people who get jobs based on family friends and whatnot, but there are still plenty of people who get jobs based on their own merits. I know that a large part of my job offer was to do with my extensive ECs and positions of responsibility while at uni, for example, and even though I was honest about an important test that I'd failed, and the fact that I had no more interviews/ACs lined up, they were not put off because I came across well in the interview.
You say you know it's not like that all the time, but it doesn't sound like that! I do get it, it's really tough out there, and I was applying to various kinds of grad jobs on and off for two years before I got something, and sometimes it felt like I would never get anywhere. It's easy to become bitter and demoralised. But you really have to try not to let it get you down, and try to focus on improving your applications. I found my CV/covering letters/applications improved vastly over time even without anyone else giving me feedback - you just have to keep altering and refining them.
Original post by davidr123
Yes - you can make an informed judgement about someone on A-levels and Uni grades - poor grades show a lack of focus or "issues" aged 18 - 23.
It makes perfect sense to stream on those that is why they do - how on earth could they get through all the applications otherwise - some grad jobs get 1000+ applications per post! - They must be fair to all and take into account everyone has done different a-levels, and gone to different universities.
It will all be meaningless if people could re-take endlessly.
Retail work is NOT going to make you stand out as the best candidate for the role - its a moron job. At least doing admin for an accountants or solicitors would get you a professional reference..
IF all you got to say about work is PC world (or whatever one you worked in) then its going to look crap against anyone else who may have even just done 2 weeks at a decent firm and written some blag down - you need relevant work experience.
Good luck - you'll get there in the end - just keep working to add value to your applications...
It makes perfect sense to stream on those that is why they do - how on earth could they get through all the applications otherwise - some grad jobs get 1000+ applications per post! - They must be fair to all and take into account everyone has done different a-levels, and gone to different universities.
It will all be meaningless if people could re-take endlessly.
Retail work is NOT going to make you stand out as the best candidate for the role - its a moron job. At least doing admin for an accountants or solicitors would get you a professional reference..
IF all you got to say about work is PC world (or whatever one you worked in) then its going to look crap against anyone else who may have even just done 2 weeks at a decent firm and written some blag down - you need relevant work experience.
Good luck - you'll get there in the end - just keep working to add value to your applications...
I work for a retailer in a technical capacity, dealing with business clients on and off site. It may not be great but it is far more than a checkout supervisor and I would like to know what you did that was any better while you were in full time education.
You are telling me that being teaboy for a "decent firm" for 2 weeks is going to add huge value to an application, get real! Dont knock people who get of there a*rse and pay for their education.
Slowhands - first off I paid for my degree but I never talk about it as if that is an achievement - it isn't. You need to get the chip off your shoulder.
Degrees are also essentially worthless - they just evidence you can stick through a period of commited study.
-
I have nothing against rich kids - many friends of mine whose parents bought them houses next to Uni to let out to paupers like myself also had internships lined up and the red carpet rolled out for banking.
Funnily enough their parents worked damn hard to give them these opportunities, why should they be treated the same as kids from parents who don't pay higher rate tax, or pay for their education but rely on the state or even perhaps have 6 kids and claim benefits?
-
Yes I am telling you teaboy or more accurately accounts assistant at a relevant firm is better than manager at a non-relevant employer.
Why? Because you made a contact in the industry - for example a personal reference from an ACA accountant when applying to a firm of ACA's is going to hold weight and indicate you commitment to career and focus.
Although I ended up in accountancy I interned at an ad agency - and built up a portfolio of work I could take to any other agencies should I have wished and personal references from people who had come from top London agencies and retained clients and contacts in the business.
All private companies are "people businesses" - you need to evidence you can network, are personable and can further the interests of the firm.
Or more bluntly as the owner of the ad agency I worked for said regards one of the account handlers;
"Why have we got that grey **** in here?, if a suit isn't bringing any business in - he should clear his desk and **** off"
-
Also think about it - you will be exposed to current issues in the profession by doing a work experience placement - the perfect commercial awareness that employers want.
Degrees are also essentially worthless - they just evidence you can stick through a period of commited study.
-
I have nothing against rich kids - many friends of mine whose parents bought them houses next to Uni to let out to paupers like myself also had internships lined up and the red carpet rolled out for banking.
Funnily enough their parents worked damn hard to give them these opportunities, why should they be treated the same as kids from parents who don't pay higher rate tax, or pay for their education but rely on the state or even perhaps have 6 kids and claim benefits?
-
Yes I am telling you teaboy or more accurately accounts assistant at a relevant firm is better than manager at a non-relevant employer.
Why? Because you made a contact in the industry - for example a personal reference from an ACA accountant when applying to a firm of ACA's is going to hold weight and indicate you commitment to career and focus.
Although I ended up in accountancy I interned at an ad agency - and built up a portfolio of work I could take to any other agencies should I have wished and personal references from people who had come from top London agencies and retained clients and contacts in the business.
All private companies are "people businesses" - you need to evidence you can network, are personable and can further the interests of the firm.
Or more bluntly as the owner of the ad agency I worked for said regards one of the account handlers;
"Why have we got that grey **** in here?, if a suit isn't bringing any business in - he should clear his desk and **** off"
-
Also think about it - you will be exposed to current issues in the profession by doing a work experience placement - the perfect commercial awareness that employers want.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by davidr123
Slowhands - first off I paid for my degree but I never talk about it as if that is an achievement - it isn't. You need to get the chip off your shoulder.
Degrees are also essentially worthless - they just evidence you can stick through a period of commited study.
-
I have nothing against rich kids - many friends of mine whose parents bought them houses next to Uni to let out to paupers like myself also had internships lined up and the red carpet rolled out for banking.
Funnily enough their parents worked damn hard to give them these opportunities, why should they be treated the same as kids from parents who don't pay higher rate tax, or pay for their education but rely on the state or even perhaps have 6 kids and claim benefits?
-
Yes I am telling you teaboy or more accurately accounts assistant at a relevant firm is better than manager at a non-relevant employer.
Why? Because you made a contact in the industry - for example a personal reference from an ACA accountant when applying to a firm of ACA's is going to hold weight and indicate you commitment to career and focus.
Although I ended up in accountancy I interned at an ad agency - and built up a portfolio of work I could take to any other agencies should I have wished and personal references from people who had come from top London agencies and retained clients and contacts in the business.
All private companies are "people businesses" - you need to evidence you can network, are personable and can further the interests of the firm.
Or more bluntly as the owner of the ad agency I worked for said regards one of the account handlers;
"Why have we got that grey **** in here?, if a suit isn't bringing any business in - he should clear his desk and **** off"
-
Also think about it - you will be exposed to current issues in the profession by doing a work experience placement - the perfect commercial awareness that employers want.
Degrees are also essentially worthless - they just evidence you can stick through a period of commited study.
-
I have nothing against rich kids - many friends of mine whose parents bought them houses next to Uni to let out to paupers like myself also had internships lined up and the red carpet rolled out for banking.
Funnily enough their parents worked damn hard to give them these opportunities, why should they be treated the same as kids from parents who don't pay higher rate tax, or pay for their education but rely on the state or even perhaps have 6 kids and claim benefits?
-
Yes I am telling you teaboy or more accurately accounts assistant at a relevant firm is better than manager at a non-relevant employer.
Why? Because you made a contact in the industry - for example a personal reference from an ACA accountant when applying to a firm of ACA's is going to hold weight and indicate you commitment to career and focus.
Although I ended up in accountancy I interned at an ad agency - and built up a portfolio of work I could take to any other agencies should I have wished and personal references from people who had come from top London agencies and retained clients and contacts in the business.
All private companies are "people businesses" - you need to evidence you can network, are personable and can further the interests of the firm.
Or more bluntly as the owner of the ad agency I worked for said regards one of the account handlers;
"Why have we got that grey **** in here?, if a suit isn't bringing any business in - he should clear his desk and **** off"
-
Also think about it - you will be exposed to current issues in the profession by doing a work experience placement - the perfect commercial awareness that employers want.
I presume that you were not intern until you finished your degree, I am correct?
I am halfway through my full time MSc. I cannot believe that showing that you have worked in a reasonable job throughout your studies isn't anything but a huge positive to employers. Plus references from Dr's and Prof from a University working with high profile companies cannot be that bad reference and contact wise?
After I have graduated in Sept then I may have to go down the intern role, however you can dress this up with all your corporate buzzwords but what employers ultimately want is:
Hard Work, Time Management, Team Work, Drive, Dedication and Loyalty
How many people have really worked consistently when they have finished Uni...From my experience not many. Essentially all jobs in different industries offer very similar experiences, mainly how you deal with colleagues and customers and essentially how you can generate value.
(edited 13 years ago)
I presume that you were not intern until you finished your degree, I am correct?
i did a sandwich
I am halfway through my full time MSc. I cannot believe that showing that you have worked in a reasonable job throughout your studies isn't anything but a huge positive to employers. Plus references from Dr's and Prof from a University working with high profile companies cannot be that bad reference and contact wise?
Thats fantastic, only problem is there is one job and the candidate before you has jsut done a 6 month internship at a similar firm and has big tits
After I have graduated in Sept then I may have to go down the intern role, however you can dress this up with all your corporate buzzwords but what employers ultimately want is:
Hard Work, Time Management, Team Work, Drive, Dedication and Loyalty
Really? I think most people can see through the bull**** and realise they want workhorses to do the grunt work who they presume will move on within 2 years when they'll get the next batch of trainees in unless they can generate business leads or increase billings for the firm
How many people have really worked consistently when they have finished Uni...From my experience not many. Essentially all jobs in different industries offer very similar experiences, mainly how you deal with colleagues and customers and essentially how you can generate value.
yes because you know everyone in the world......"add value" -this isa good point how are you going to add value to your application against the big tits of the previous candidate?]
i did a sandwich
I am halfway through my full time MSc. I cannot believe that showing that you have worked in a reasonable job throughout your studies isn't anything but a huge positive to employers. Plus references from Dr's and Prof from a University working with high profile companies cannot be that bad reference and contact wise?
Thats fantastic, only problem is there is one job and the candidate before you has jsut done a 6 month internship at a similar firm and has big tits
After I have graduated in Sept then I may have to go down the intern role, however you can dress this up with all your corporate buzzwords but what employers ultimately want is:
Hard Work, Time Management, Team Work, Drive, Dedication and Loyalty
Really? I think most people can see through the bull**** and realise they want workhorses to do the grunt work who they presume will move on within 2 years when they'll get the next batch of trainees in unless they can generate business leads or increase billings for the firm
How many people have really worked consistently when they have finished Uni...From my experience not many. Essentially all jobs in different industries offer very similar experiences, mainly how you deal with colleagues and customers and essentially how you can generate value.
yes because you know everyone in the world......"add value" -this isa good point how are you going to add value to your application against the big tits of the previous candidate?]
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by slowhand87
....
Haven't read it all but 39 rejections out of 40ish applications, while studying for an MSc at Cranfield = badly written CV, nothing else. Your A levels aren't the issue, your A levels on top of a badly written CV are.
Upload your CV into the CV Help thread as a Word .doc or docx
Original post by slowhand87
Having just found out that a friend of mine who obtained a 2:1 at similar ranked University but obtained 360 UCAS points has just been offered an Investment Banking position with a part time MBA degree it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth (considering that he has never has a long term job)
What type of graduate schemes are you applying for exactly? As in which sector? Because if you're applying for IB roles like this friend of yours, then loads of rejections are to be expected considering they can only take 1 person out of the >1000 that apply. Not all graduate schemes are as competitive, if you're not getting into high-end jobs, then consider lowering your sights.
(edited 13 years ago)
I've just read this entire thread and I'm absolutely gutted to have to say I'm in exactly the same position. Well except I gained a BEng first in civil engineering from an average uni last year and I'm currently studying my masters in engineering at Uni of Manchester.
Literally don't know what to say, I haven't really applied for many jobs, I have little to no experience and I was hoping that I could make up for my prior mistakes with a masters degree but now I feel like I may be wasting time and money.
I have poor A-levels also, a series of mistakes and circumstances meant I didn't achieve... No one to blame but myself though! This has haunted me for some time and I was hoping that after finishing my masters that I could go on to re-take my maths a-levels as they should be fairly easy since I did well in my engineering degree but I see that several people have mentioned that they won't count for anything.
I'm not a quitter, I'm a hard working individual and I think I have the intelligence to go along way in life. But having read this heart breaking forum, I'm starting to think perhaps I should quit whilst I'm a head and start thinking more along the lines of shelf stacking for the foreseeable future.
It's kind of the curse of the average university... in retrospect I wish I'd worked harder and gone to a respectable uni in the first place, I didn't and now I'm left with the 'poor university curse'. I think they should stop people who can't reach a good uni in the first place from going to uni. Because from what you have said here its a waste of time.
Thankfully my brother didn't mess up his A-levels, went to Nottingham University and got a 2:1 in civil engineering and is now a financial analyst. No masters needed. Goes to show that... yes it is partially what you know and/or who you know but ultimately what you do when your young will follow you for your entire life because it reflect who you are I suppose.
I mean this last sentence...
All the best in getting a job if you haven't already but I personally think you should perhaps aim lower just like I will now be doing. But thanks for opening my eyes.
Literally don't know what to say, I haven't really applied for many jobs, I have little to no experience and I was hoping that I could make up for my prior mistakes with a masters degree but now I feel like I may be wasting time and money.
I have poor A-levels also, a series of mistakes and circumstances meant I didn't achieve... No one to blame but myself though! This has haunted me for some time and I was hoping that after finishing my masters that I could go on to re-take my maths a-levels as they should be fairly easy since I did well in my engineering degree but I see that several people have mentioned that they won't count for anything.
I'm not a quitter, I'm a hard working individual and I think I have the intelligence to go along way in life. But having read this heart breaking forum, I'm starting to think perhaps I should quit whilst I'm a head and start thinking more along the lines of shelf stacking for the foreseeable future.
It's kind of the curse of the average university... in retrospect I wish I'd worked harder and gone to a respectable uni in the first place, I didn't and now I'm left with the 'poor university curse'. I think they should stop people who can't reach a good uni in the first place from going to uni. Because from what you have said here its a waste of time.
Thankfully my brother didn't mess up his A-levels, went to Nottingham University and got a 2:1 in civil engineering and is now a financial analyst. No masters needed. Goes to show that... yes it is partially what you know and/or who you know but ultimately what you do when your young will follow you for your entire life because it reflect who you are I suppose.
I mean this last sentence...
All the best in getting a job if you haven't already but I personally think you should perhaps aim lower just like I will now be doing. But thanks for opening my eyes.
(edited 12 years ago)
We need to close down the Universities, too many people that shouldn't be there in the first place. AAA should be the MINIMUM required grade to get into University.
****ed up in your A-Levels? Tough ****. Should have done better. Life isn't about 'second chances' and 'mitigating circumstances' you ****ing bunch of hippy faggots.
The benefits of this are clear:
> Less graduates moaning about 'not getting work' boohoo
> Less ***** trying to sell insurance to each other.
> Less 'graduate recruitment consultants'
> Hopefully the end of the 6 month long applications to get a 'graduate job'
> Better standard of University, will inevitably cost the taxpayer less; and still produce as many top calibre employees, not just a load of washed up grads who roll into banking... yawn
****ed up in your A-Levels? Tough ****. Should have done better. Life isn't about 'second chances' and 'mitigating circumstances' you ****ing bunch of hippy faggots.
The benefits of this are clear:
> Less graduates moaning about 'not getting work' boohoo
> Less ***** trying to sell insurance to each other.
> Less 'graduate recruitment consultants'
> Hopefully the end of the 6 month long applications to get a 'graduate job'
> Better standard of University, will inevitably cost the taxpayer less; and still produce as many top calibre employees, not just a load of washed up grads who roll into banking... yawn
Original post by slowhand87
I would like to know if anyone has a similar experience to me or can offer any pearls of wisdom.
I graduated last year with a 1:1 in an engineering degree and am currently studying a MSc at a well regarded university. With my MSc due to finish in Sept this year I decided several months ago to start applying for graduate schemes (both engineering and non) and also normal (non-grad) jobs that suit my degree.
However 6 months and around 40 applications later, I have made one assessment centre and had around 39 rejections. I have been searching for the answers to why this has happened and now it appears that companies only care about A levels!
I thought that recruiters would clambering to interview me because of my past.
MY ACADEMIC+WORK RECORD
- Studying MSc at World Renowned University
- First Class Honours Degree - Engineering
-7 Years working part time for a multinational IT Retailer (Technical, Customer Service and Sales Experience)
-Started and ran my own E-Commerce site for 2 years
I have worked nearly 20hrs per week since I was 16 whilst studying at University and I thought that these attributes would propel me into great job.
However it appears that I am being punished for my academic record from 5 years ago. My A-Level results were C,D,E in IT,Maths and Physics. Admittedly these are very poor however I did not work hard enough and realised when starting my degree that I needed to improve.
When applying for graduate schemes, most required a numerical test of which I always past. I have considered retaking my A-Levels however it seems that organisations do not accept A Level retakes.
Most companies ask for at least 280 UCAS point however I have under 200 and am being punished for my record 5 years ago. My MSc is also irrelevant due to my college results.
Having just found out that a friend of mine who obtained a 2:1 at similar ranked University but obtained 360 UCAS points has just been offered an Investment Banking position with a part time MBA degree it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth (considering that he has never has a long term job)
So...at 23 with what I thought was a very good CV 6 months ago, has now meant that I cannot find employment and no grad-schemes will even listen to me.
Anyone thinking of going to Uni without 3 A/B A-Levels DO NOT BOTHER AND WASTE THE TIME AND MONEY -
I graduated last year with a 1:1 in an engineering degree and am currently studying a MSc at a well regarded university. With my MSc due to finish in Sept this year I decided several months ago to start applying for graduate schemes (both engineering and non) and also normal (non-grad) jobs that suit my degree.
However 6 months and around 40 applications later, I have made one assessment centre and had around 39 rejections. I have been searching for the answers to why this has happened and now it appears that companies only care about A levels!
I thought that recruiters would clambering to interview me because of my past.
MY ACADEMIC+WORK RECORD
- Studying MSc at World Renowned University
- First Class Honours Degree - Engineering
-7 Years working part time for a multinational IT Retailer (Technical, Customer Service and Sales Experience)
-Started and ran my own E-Commerce site for 2 years
I have worked nearly 20hrs per week since I was 16 whilst studying at University and I thought that these attributes would propel me into great job.
However it appears that I am being punished for my academic record from 5 years ago. My A-Level results were C,D,E in IT,Maths and Physics. Admittedly these are very poor however I did not work hard enough and realised when starting my degree that I needed to improve.
When applying for graduate schemes, most required a numerical test of which I always past. I have considered retaking my A-Levels however it seems that organisations do not accept A Level retakes.
Most companies ask for at least 280 UCAS point however I have under 200 and am being punished for my record 5 years ago. My MSc is also irrelevant due to my college results.
Having just found out that a friend of mine who obtained a 2:1 at similar ranked University but obtained 360 UCAS points has just been offered an Investment Banking position with a part time MBA degree it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth (considering that he has never has a long term job)
So...at 23 with what I thought was a very good CV 6 months ago, has now meant that I cannot find employment and no grad-schemes will even listen to me.
Anyone thinking of going to Uni without 3 A/B A-Levels DO NOT BOTHER AND WASTE THE TIME AND MONEY -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0hjSaYCRnA
Seriously, that sucks. I don't think everyone will be so short-sighted though! Perhaps try sending emails directly not via the whole normal channels and explain your situation?
Original post by fourskin
We need to close down the Universities, too many people that shouldn't be there in the first place. AAA should be the MINIMUM required grade to get into University.
****ed up in your A-Levels? Tough ****. Should have done better. Life isn't about 'second chances' and 'mitigating circumstances' you ****ing bunch of hippy faggots.
The benefits of this are clear:
> Less graduates moaning about 'not getting work' boohoo
> Less ***** trying to sell insurance to each other.
> Less 'graduate recruitment consultants'
> Hopefully the end of the 6 month long applications to get a 'graduate job'
> Better standard of University, will inevitably cost the taxpayer less; and still produce as many top calibre employees, not just a load of washed up grads who roll into banking... yawn
****ed up in your A-Levels? Tough ****. Should have done better. Life isn't about 'second chances' and 'mitigating circumstances' you ****ing bunch of hippy faggots.
The benefits of this are clear:
> Less graduates moaning about 'not getting work' boohoo
> Less ***** trying to sell insurance to each other.
> Less 'graduate recruitment consultants'
> Hopefully the end of the 6 month long applications to get a 'graduate job'
> Better standard of University, will inevitably cost the taxpayer less; and still produce as many top calibre employees, not just a load of washed up grads who roll into banking... yawn
I have an idea!
How about we create "special" Universities, just for people like you. Where a whole multitude of ignorant people can rant all day long and live a life of blissfull ignorance paid for by Daddy.
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