TSR MHoC General Election April 2011

Original post by Wednesday Bass

If they are financially unable to pay, they don't pay. The loan repayments are something you don't have to budget for. They come out of your pay packet like national insurance and income tax.

Ok I agree that you have won this time, but I am not convinced that everyone can afford to go to university now. But the thing is, education should not be a commodity that only those who can pay for can have, and should not be priced at all. Why make cuts to the most successful services? If we really want people to be going to uni (which you obviously don't), then why raise prices? Even if one may be able to pay, then they may not think that they will be able to pay.

The truth of the matter is that the tories have no moral argument, and cannot take the moral high ground in an argument with a socialist, who believes that all should be treated the same, and should live the same.

Reply 143

Original post by mevidek

Ok I agree that you have won this time, but I am not convinced that everyone can afford to go to university now. But the thing is, education should not be a commodity that only those who can pay for can have, and should not be priced at all. Why make cuts to the most successful services? If we really want people to be going to uni (which you obviously don't), then why raise prices? Even if one may be able to pay, then they may not think that they will be able to pay.

The truth of the matter is that the tories have no moral argument, and cannot take the moral high ground in an argument with a socialist, who believes that all should be treated the same, and should live the same.

This is the issue that needs addressing and I believe that much of that problem is caused by those who say that the poor won't be able to afford university.

You stating that is what turns them away from university. You may believe that they shouldn't have to pay but the line of argument people who oppose them use is hindering not helping.

Reply 144

Original post by cambo211

This is the issue that needs addressing and I believe that much of that problem is caused by those who say that the poor won't be able to afford university.

You stating that is what turns them away from university. You may believe that they shouldn't have to pay but the line of argument people who oppose them use is hindering not helping.

Well if we abolish tuition fees then many more people will want to go to university.

which is a massive positive

Reply 145

Original post by mevidek

Well if we abolish tuition fees then many more people will want to go to university.

which is a massive positive

University used to be free.

More people go to university now than ever before.

(I know that's not the only factor in the issue)

Reply 146

Wednesday Bass

15

Original post by mevidek

Well if we abolish tuition fees then many more people will want to go to university.

which is a massive positive

Why is it a good thing? Surely it would be better to have people training for specific jobs rather than needlessly pushing them to an arbitrary target that the government feels is necessary. Labour pushing for 50% of school leavers to go to universities and has meant that universities are heavily underfunded and is the reason the tuition fees have had to go up (alongside the deficit).

Reply 147

Original post by cambo211

University used to be free.

More people go to university now than ever before.

(I know that's not the only factor in the issue)

Yes but the thing is more people are going to uni now because of the wider range of courses available. It's not like the introduction of paying made everyone decide to go. Now the amounts will just stagnate thanks to the idiocy of our government.

Reply 148

toronto353

Original post by mevidek

Well if we abolish tuition fees then many more people will want to go to university.

which is a massive positive

If you have the money, then in some ways yes. However, this devalues a degree as so many people will have one. Also bear in mind that why should your average person in the street who hasn't got a degree pay taxes to fund someone who will go on to get £100000 extra in their lifetime? I don't see that argument. People want to go to university and that is fine, but when, as cambo says, more people go than ever before, why should society burden the complete cost?

Reply 149

Original post by Wednesday Bass

Why is it a good thing? Surely it would be better to have people training for specific jobs rather than needlessly pushing them to an arbitrary target that the government feels is necessary. Labour pushing for 50% of school leavers to go to universities and has meant that universities are heavily underfunded and is the reason the tuition fees have had to go up (alongside the deficit).

It is a good thing because everyone should be allowed to go there, not just a select few. I know you wouldn't understand as you are a tory, and like them all, you are only interested in personal gain. As a socialist however, I want everyone to earn, and have good lives.

Reply 150

Original post by mevidek

Yes but the thing is more people are going to uni now because of the wider range of courses available. It's not like the introduction of paying made everyone decide to go. Now the amounts will just stagnate thanks to the idiocy of our government.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I believe that everyone should engage in some form of Higher Education but i think for a large number of people they would be better suited in other forms than university.

Reply 151

Original post by toronto353

If you have the money, then in some ways yes. However, this devalues a degree as so many people will have one. Also bear in mind that why should your average person in the street who hasn't got a degree pay taxes to fund someone who will go on to get £100000 extra in their lifetime? I don't see that argument. People want to go to university and that is fine, but when, as cambo says, more people go than ever before, why should society burden the complete cost?

Because those who go to uni come out with a degree (if successful), and then can get good jobs and will be able to pay taxes easily, plus they will not need benefits. That means that you will be able to increase graduate tax to suite other people's burdens.

Reply 152

Original post by cambo211

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I believe that everyone should engage in some form of Higher Education but i think for a large number of people they would be better suited in other forms than university.

No. Everyone should go to university if they want to. That means we have equality, which is not what a tory wants.

Reply 153

joe3469

I so hope there is enough for a Labour-Socialist majority coalition. There would definitely be enough for a Lib-Lab-Soc coalition aswell because the lib dems on this seem like the real lib dems did a year ago (i.e. not tories)
After reading around the history of this it would be great if the left managed to get back in :biggrin:

Reply 154

toronto353

Original post by mevidek

Because those who go to uni come out with a degree (if successful), and then can get good jobs and will be able to pay taxes easily, plus they will not need benefits. That means that you will be able to increase graduate tax to suite other people's burdens.

You increase their contributions because they are earning more. Why should a taxpayer on £10000 a year pay for someone who will earn on average at least £100000 more than that £10000 taxpayer to do a degree?

Reply 155

Ham and Cheese

1

Original post by joe3469

I so hope there is enough for a Labour-Socialist majority coalition. There would definitely be enough for a Lib-Lab-Soc coalition aswell because the lib dems on this seem like the real lib dems did a year ago (i.e. not tories)
After reading around the history of this it would be great if the left managed to get back in :biggrin:

If TSR Labour obtains the most seats then I will be pushing for a coalition with the third biggest party (probably Centre Party or Liberals). Given that's most democratic and will provide us with enough seats for an overall majority.

A Coalition with many small parties (such as the Socialist Party) will be far too messy imo.

Reply 156

Original post by mevidek

No. Everyone should go to university if they want to. That means we have equality, which is not what a tory wants.

University isn't for everyone and there are many people who would benefit more from other forms of education or training.

I'm not saying we should just flat out reject people from universities I'm saying we need to make sure that people are fully aware of the options that are open to them and that the next step on from further education isn't necessarily a degree and that those who wish to go onto university need not be put off by fear of not being able to afford it.

Reply 157

Ham and Cheese

1

Original post by joe3469

Aww :/
It should be about ideology aren't labour a "socialist" party. What would Kier Hardie do?
Also socialists have 3rd most in popular vote atm.

Yes

we could pass much more ideological material with the Socialists but I feel in this scenario we should be democratic and try and go into Coalition with the third biggest party. It would give a Government a clear mandate to govern :smile:

Well if the Socialists come third then I'd be happy to go into Coalition with you :smile:

Reply 158