Year 12s: what will be the first way you research your future options? >>

Afghanistan: Deadly Kandahar protest at Koran burning

Scroll to see replies

Still doesn't explain your sexist remark nor are your claims even factual.

1) that doesn't make sense nor does it have any relation to what I said
2) good

Overwhelmingly it has happened in the West and exported to other places.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3IrKEzgkQkMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=late+victorian+holocausts&hl=en&ei=ASWZTZfwHMrxsgaW49SzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

What is there to explain?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

No they've all exclusively happened in Western enclaves, influenced by western ideals so don't attempt to universalise it, Islamic societies aren't fascistic you're the ones who coined and practiced the term, so to even suggest that Islamic societies live within fascism is evidently false.

Not sexist, a well known phenomena (http://www.gallup.com/poll/7432/why-women-more-religious.aspx)

You were saying that Islamic civilization spanned 1400 years, and, judging by the tone of your post, I concluded you meant that to be a positive attribute. A reasonable assumption, I think.

That is a hell of a link, hah. I think it would be foolish to argue that genocide originated in the West - just read the Old Testament and you can see that wiping out whole peoples has been occurring for thousands of years. You could say that modern genocide originated in parts of the West, however these genocidal regimes were also defeated by the other, better, democratic parts of the western world.

I think you will find that the Golden age of Muslim civilization has long passed. After all, in a single year more books are translated by Spain into Spanish than have been translated into Arabic by the entire Arab world in the last thousand years (http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=103938&d=24&m=11&y=2007). Muslim society has closed itself off, and the results have been saddening.

"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>"
This is from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, and I think the concept of "submission" in the Islamic faith could easily be construed in this manner, with Allah serving as the dictator.

The fact is that, for all the flaws of Western civilization, it has produced the most peaceful, prosperous, and free societies is human history. Deny it all you want, but you know it to be the truth.

Reply 81

B-Man.

Original post by Wucker

The Hadith that I draw my information from is one of six canonical texts in the Sunni Muslim faith. It is, by definition, then, the accepted interpretation.

Original post by Wucker

I am equally critical of Christianity, and its holy book contains, like the Koran, many horrible passages.
The difference is that, in most of the Western world, Christianity has largely become secularized (the largest exception being the evangelical movement in the United States). You will never find Christians killing and rioting over something as silly as a burnt Bible. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Muslims.

Where in the Western world has a Muslim stoned someone to death because his holy book commanded him to do so? In California a 28-year-old Upper Darby man stoned a 70-year-old man to death when the man made sexual advances toward him, authorities say. Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that gays should be stoned to death. Source

Christians have gotten beyond killing for ridiculous non-sensical religious fanaticism? except in this case of a father wanting to watch the world cup instead of a religious programme. However, the biggest act of Western Christian-fanaticism of recent times is the million Iraqi's slaughtered because George Bush thought God spoke to him, who told him to launch (in his words) 'a crusade' in Iraq. Although in fairness to George Bush he had seen "Gog and Magog at work" in the middle east and the biblical prophecies unfolding. Source

Now, I am in no way trying to suggest that fanaticism in Christianity is larger than Islam but you seem to be way to quick to disregard it.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 82

username608503

Original post by B-Man.

I would say that considering most Muslims live under a country in which the age of consent is greater than 9 and generally around 16 it would indicate that most do not believe that Child marriage is acceptable today.

Where in the Western world has a Muslim stoned someone to death because his holy book commanded him to do so? In California a 28-year-old Upper Darby man stoned a 70-year-old man to death when the man made sexual advances toward him, authorities say. Thomas told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that gays should be stoned to death. Source

Christians have gotten beyond killing for ridiculous non-sensical religious fanaticism? except in this case of a father wanting to watch the world cup instead of a religious programme. However, the biggest act of Western Christian-fanaticism of recent times is the million Iraqi's slaughtered because George Bush thought God spoke to him, who told him to launch (in his words) 'a crusade' in Iraq. Although in fairness to George Bush he had seen "Gog and Magog at work" in the middle east and the biblical prophecies unfolding. Source

Now, I am in no way trying to suggest that fanaticism in Christianity is larger than Islam but you seem to be way to quick to disregard it.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that child marriage isn't acceptable in Muslim society (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty).

As for the flaws of Christianity in America, you have no idea. I am an American, I lived in the Rural South for many years, and you would be hard pressed to find a more religious place. I have seen first hand the bigotry it produces, and I hope never again to live in such a place. In fact, if you want to look at the future of the EU if unlimited immigration from very conservative religious communties continues, then go to Tidewater Virginia.

Don't even get me started on George Bush. I protested the Iraq war on multiple occasions, I campaigned for his opponent in 2004 - I would be the last person to defend his actions in the least. His eight year reign did more harm to my country than one can really quantify. It would be too easy, however, to put his invasion of Iraq down to religion. The concept had been part of the neo-conservative agenda since the 1990s and has more to do that political ideology. That being said, there is a worrying strand of deeply conservative and agressive Christianity in our armed forces, but thats a whole other story.

What I would tell you, as I assume you are a Briton, is that you do not suffer from this brand of evangelical Christianity. You have, for the most part, secularized your society. It would be the ultimate folly to import a new conservative movement that would be all to happy to seriously limit many of the freedoms you now enjoy.

Reply 83

B-Man.

Original post by Wucker

I wouldn't be too quick to say that child marriage isn't acceptable in Muslim society (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...buse-pederasty).

Original post by Wucker

What I would tell you, as I assume you are a Briton, is that you do not suffer from this brand of evangelical Christianity. You have, for the most part, secularized your society. It would be the ultimate folly to import a new conservative movement that would be all to happy to seriously limit many of the freedoms you now enjoy.

We shouldn't tolerate fundamentalism of any religion. As a British Muslim I like my freedoms here in Britain and have never met a Muslim fundamentalist, although I would say there are many who are ungrateful of their freedoms (note, this isn't exclusive to Muslims) - in fact I used to be too but as I became more educated about the state of other nations I became more grateful for what I have. Amongst the British Muslims I can see a very secular society which may surprise you. Their actions on the whole are more related to culture rather than religion. I honestly don't think Muslims pose any significant threat to Britain. The majority are integrated and moderate.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 84

username608503

Original post by B-Man.

Bach bazi only occurs in tribal regions in Afghanistan. Even there it was outlawed by the Taliban and it only re-emerged after the US-led invasion ousted them. However, the outrage which the revelation of such practices causes amongst Afghans shows that it is not socially accpetable in Afghanistan either. Also this is an unfair example as although this may be the actions of Muslims, it is not done in the name of Islam. You could find many Western-Christian examples of peadophillia (I'm sure I don't need to point out where) but this doesn't mean it is an acceptable practice amongst Western Christians.

We shouldn't tolerate fundamentalism of any religion. As a British Muslim I like my freedoms here in Britain and have never met a Muslim fundamentalist, although I would say there are many who are ungrateful of their freedoms (note, this isn't exclusive to Muslims) - in fact I used to be too but as I became more educated about the state of other nations I became more grateful for what I have. Amongst the British Muslims I can see a very secular society which may surprise you. Their actions on the whole are more related to culture rather than religion. I honestly don't think Muslims pose any significant threat to Britain. The majority are integrated and moderate.

For both our sakes I hope you are right about that. Unfortunately, I have to weigh your anecdotal evidence against a bulk-work of surveys pointing towards an increasing radicalization of Muslim youth in the United Kingdom.

As an Atheist I do not necessarily distinguish between culture and religion. To make that distinction one has to assume that there is, in fact, an absolute truth behind religion that it didn't, unlike culture, come from mankind. In my mind, though, there isn't that truth, that "word of God", per se. Religion, like culture, sprung from the minds of humanity and, unfortunately, from the minds of ancient and backward peoples. The results have been self evident.

Reply 85

B-Man.

Original post by Wucker

I probably won't reply untill tommorow because there is a significant time difference between the UK and USA - it is actually 4.48 am and I need sleep. Anyway could you post the surveys you are reffering to - I have always found them to be too vague to really be of any value.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 86

username608503

Original post by B-Man.

Of course.

These are just a couple that I have seen:

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/pdfs/Living_Apart_Together_-_Jan__07.pdf

- 37% of Muslim youth want Sharia law, 36% believe you should be put to death.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/50/the-french-muslim-connection

- 75% of British Muslims supported the youth rioting in France, 40% support the attainment of nuclear weapons by Iran, 32% hold a favorable view of Jewish people

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html

- 33% of UK Muslim students support the idea of a worldwide Islamic caliphate, 40% don't want Muslim women and men to mix freely

These are pretty scary numbers to any modern, liberal Briton - aren't they?

No doubt you will remain in denial, though ...

Reply 87

2ndClass

Original post by Wucker

Not sexist, a well known phenomena (http://www.gallup.com/poll/7432/why-women-more-religious.aspx)

Eh? gallup poll opinion= well known phenomena?

try again please

And that still doesn't explain the fact why women from highly secularised liberal societies convert to a "sexist" religion.

You were saying that Islamic civilization spanned 1400 years, and, judging by the tone of your post, I concluded you meant that to be a positive attribute. A reasonable assumption, I think.

No, superficial understanding.

That is a hell of a link, hah.

Great attack link not substance

typical

I think it would be foolish to argue that genocide originated in the West - just read the Old Testament and you can see that wiping out whole peoples has been occurring for thousands of years. You could say that modern genocide originated in parts of the West, however these genocidal regimes were also defeated by the other, better, democratic parts of the western world.

Why go back to the Old Testament, we need only look 300 years past.

I think you will find that the Golden age of Muslim civilization has long passed.

That's irrelevant, it made its mark and refuted your notion that Islam promotes ignorance.

After all, in a single year more books are translated by Spain into Spanish than have been translated into Arabic by the entire Arab world in the last thousand years (http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=103938&d=24&m=11&y=2007). Muslim society has closed itself off, and the results have been saddening.

Again irrelevant, maybe the Muslim world need to return to its past rather than "progressing" as you wish to attain this level of modernity.

"a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>"
This is from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, and I think the concept of "submission" in the Islamic faith could easily be construed in this manner, with Allah serving as the dictator.

Err no, try again and your following "assessment" is depressingly laughable.

One is nationalistic, the other international in scope. One is utterly indifferent to questions of morality, the other is. One is heavily based on economics and politics, the other is almost entirely concerned with religion.

The fact is that, for all the flaws of Western civilization, it has produced the most peaceful, prosperous, and free societies is human history. Deny it all you want, but you know it to be the truth.

It hasn't really, the most brutal and destructive wars in Human history have been fought mainly between Westerners and the most aggressive nations today are Western.

Some thing's wrong there.

Reply 88

username608503

Original post by 2ndClass

Eh? gallup poll opinion= well known phenomena?

try again please

And that still doesn't explain the fact why women from highly secularised liberal societies convert to a "sexist" religion.

No, superficial understanding.

Great attack link not substance

typical

Why go back to the Old Testament, we need only look 300 years past.

That's irrelevant, it made its mark and refuted your notion that Islam promotes ignorance.

Again irrelevant, maybe the Muslim world need to return to its past rather than "progressing" as you wish to attain this level of modernity.

Err no, try again and your following "assessment" is depressingly laughable.

One is nationalistic, the other international in scope. One is utterly indifferent to questions of morality, the other is. One is heavily based on economics and politics, the other is almost entirely concerned with religion.

It hasn't really, the most brutal and destructive wars in Human history have been fought mainly between Westerners and the most aggressive nations today are Western.

Some thing's wrong there.

I will continue this back and forth, because I enjoy it, and because, based on your insults, I can tell I am getting to you.

If you read the summary, you would see its allusion to the fact that it is a well known phenomena. Just google it, though. Frankly, there are many articles and papers addressing it. Such as the following: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_jacoby/2007/01/why_women_are_more_religious_t.html

Superficial understanding of what? Muslim civilization? Your argument? Frankly, you can sing its praises all you want, but their is a reason that millions of people have fled the Islamic world for the West.

I am not attacking the link, I am sure it is a fine and scholarly piece of work - just a little lengthy for the discussion at hand.

I think it is safe to say that the Muslim world is already enamored with it's past. After all, their society is built around following the ramblings of a 7th century desert tribesman.

Fascism can be defined in multiple ways, my usage was intended to refer to the definition provided by the quote I have given you.

Of course the West has fought the most destructive wars, it has been the most technologically, economically, and politically advanced region of the world for the last 500 odd years. It has also destroyed and built and killed and saved and lost and gained more than any other civilization. It has done much good and much bad. The result, though, is a country like Britain where, for now, we are allowed to have arguments like this, using technology that did not exist a decade ago, within the comfort of a largely peaceful community.

You can whine and moan about the West's imperialism and aggression, but the fact is that the Middle East and Africa remain, fifty years after the end of colonialism, mired in ignorance, corruption, poverty, and brutality. You can blame it on the West all you want but, ultimately, their own leaders and their own policies and their own inability to move on past their ancient ideology serve as the true culprits.