Netherlands set to ban halal/kosher slaughter without stunning

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Only if animals could speak after they die, we would have a stronger case over whether ritual slaughter is humane in which I case I do btw.

Civil liberties aren't being protected.

Reply 61

xXxiKillxXx

Does stunning kill the animal?

Reply 62

B-Man.

Original post by xXxiKillxXx

Does stunning kill the animal?

no.

Reply 63

Cybele

Original post by B-Man.

It doesn't contain any hyperlinks. And if you expect me or anyone other TSR member to actively find everyone of those books to verify his claims your dreaming.

They're online journals. The point is, the studies are there.

Reply 64

Smophy

I'm for this. I think anyway. I have to say though that stunning isn't necessarily that much better. It doesn't always work and can just cause intense pain for the animal. Slitting an animals throat can sometimes cause instant unconsciousness and therefore less pain and suffering. I do however expect that it is more common for stunning to work instantly than slitting the throat so yeah I am for it I think lol.

Reply 65

B-Man.

Original post by FyreFight

New Scientist: Animals Feel the Pain of Religious Slaughter

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter.html

This is a convincing article which any supporters of anti-stunning methods should read and consider. Any counter-arguements to the claims?

Reply 66

In2deep

Original post by B-Man.

As a Muslim I'm indifferent to stunning or no-stunning of Halal meat. I have heard arguements on both sides for whether it causes greater suffering or not, but I don't think it makes much of a difference, if any. However, if someone wants to provide a reliable study which proves me wrong, they are more than welcome and I'll will give it genuine consideration - I'm not impervious to facts.

Two things you should be worried about as a Muslim..

1) The meat will not be halal if the animal dies before you read the prayer and slaughter it properly. From other studies, the is a reasonable percentage of the chicken (not bigger animals) will die instantly when the shock is applied.

2) It is not acceptable for their to be any pain caused to the animal unnecessarily. If it is proven that the electric shock causes no pain whatsoever then that's fine.

There are two studies that I can't find the links to right now. First one deals with pain an animal feels when it is stunned and talks about the difference between the sensory and motor neurones and how they are affected. Second study tries to prove that ritual slaughter carried out by Muslims and Jews cause minimal pain and gives the reasons..

If anyone can find this studies, that would be welcomed :smile:

Reply 67

Teras

I am totally against this! There is more pain in electrocution then in sharp slaughter with the knife.

The example I will give to prove this is us humans. If anyone has been electrocuted you will know that you will feel quite a lot of pain whereas when you cut any place in your body you wont feel any pain till few minutes later. I had a friend who accidentally CHOPPED part of his finger off, soo much blood was coming out but he told me there was no pain whatsoever. He was just confused and too worried to think of the pains. I have been electrocuted a few times and I seriously hate the pain and stays for quite some time!

Reply 68

B-Man.

Original post by In2deep

I understand that it must be alive before it is slaughtered. I am not aware of the studies you are reffering to however.

Original post by In2deep

2) It is not acceptable for their to be any pain caused to the animal unnecessarily. If it is proven that the electric shock causes no pain whatsoever then that's fine.

From what I have read it doesn't seem to cause extra pain but I won't rule it out, if anyone can provide evidence to counter this.

Original post by In2deep

There are two studies that I can't find the links to right now. First one deals with pain an animal feels when it is stunned and talks about the difference between the sensory and motor neurones and how they are affected. Second study tries to prove that ritual slaughter carried out by Muslims and Jews cause minimal pain and gives the reasons..

If anyone can find this studies, that would be welcomed :smile:

I would appreciate the studies as well :smile:

Reply 69

Chillaxer

It's funny I was just thinking how much I liek Holland, but how globalised it's becoming and powerless to keep it's own culture, and then they go and do this.

Reply 70

B-Man.

Original post by Humz7

which is why an american university referred as the university of miami conducted it?
yeah of course, it can't be right? stupid yanks, what do they know eh? :rolleyes:

You linked to an article which refers to a study conducted in a German University called 'the University of Hanover.'

Original post by Humz7

those who claim that butchering halal/kosher way is, 'crueler', than stunning.. go get some facts before you can back that bull**** up.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/an/an_slaughter.htm

Reply 71

No Man

Original post by storna

Article.

So, essentially, the Netherlands is set to ban halal/kosher slaughter where stunning is not used beforehand. They will still be able to make a prayer/cut the animal's throat - but only after it has been stunned.

Agree/disagree?

Good.

All halal meat should be done that way.
There's no reason to cause unnecessary pain. while slaughtering.

Original post by Teras

The electric shock paralyses them, so they can't feel anything.

It's not the same as getting electrocuted.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 72

Acerbic

Good, good, good. Bloody awful way to commit a bloody awful act is banned - one step forward.

Reply 73

B-Man.

Original post by No Man

Good.

All halal meat should be done that way.
There's no reason to cause unnecessary pain. while slaughtering.

The electric shock paralyses them, so they can't feel anything.

It's not the same as getting electrocuted.

What about Kosher meat?

Reply 74

No Man

Original post by B-Man.

What about Kosher meat?

Well, if the slaughtering technique for kosher meat is the same as halal meat, I feel the same way about kosher meat too.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 75

B-Man.

Original post by No Man

Well, if the slaughtering technique for kosher meat is the same as halal meat, I feel the same way about kosher meat too.

The article clearly explains this is the case.

Reply 76

The Cornerstone

I wonder what they're going to do about the constant pain they give to farm animals like chicken by feeding them growth hormones and keeping them in cages constantly. Oh yeah nothing, more interested in whether cutting their throats or stunning them (which can be done more than once for large animals) is more painful.

Oh well

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 77

Jez RR

So if the animal is stunned before slaughter, does that mean it would not be halal by definition, however it was slaughtered?

If so, the Netherlands have basically just outlawed halal meat.

Reply 78

crazycake93

Original post by wtfCharlie

Good. I love the idea of respecting the animal with a prayer etc, but it should be done as humanely as possible.

Cattle or lifestock stunned with electricity are more likely to feel pain for longer than Cattle or lifestock whose juggular vein is slit instantly, killling it just as fast as or even faster than being stunned with electricity.

Infact the quality of meat that is stunned is poor compared to halal/kosher meat. By stunning the lifestock blood vessels burst and Haemorrhages form.

Cutting the veins on the neck of the animal also drains all blood from it's body. EEG medical studies have shown that the direct method of slaughter (cutting the neck veins) is infact PAINLESS to animals.

In conclusion people that consume Non Halal/Kosher meat products are actually cruel to animals. Perpetuating the myth that shocking the animal is far more humane is insanity. I think it's just that westerners look down upon cutting the neck of the animal as it seems Barbaric. When infact it IS the most humane.

I don't know about Kosher meat, but I know that Cattle being slaughtered in the Halal manner is treated well, fed, given water. And then killed. The animal is not forced to move to many areas, and does not experiance alot of stress.

Reply 79

Ventura7

Agree, why do normal abattoirs have to do it but because of some stupid religious thing they dont have to stun the animal, stupid, rules in england are stupid, they apply to some people and not to others