Is the government intent on damaging Oxford?

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Are you white and affluent? Because if so, you're the lucky product of social engineering.

Whites are underrepresented at Oxford, as per the above link.

(Of course, that isn't a bad thing at all. Entry is by academic merit. But you claiming whites are unfairly advantaged certainly doesn't seem to be supported by statistics.)

Reply 21

Leon Trotsky

Original post by im so academic

http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/110315_1.html

Right, sure, but you know what I mean. They were slated for charging the full amount for their courses, even if they're going to make it cheaper for students from lower income backgrounds.

Original post by Vinchenko

True, but Oxford is one of the universities they KNEW would always charge £9k, and would have accepted doing so quite easily (especially if it was one of about just 5, as was predicted). The 9k limit was supposed to be just for a select few, and Oxford would always have been in that group. At Cambridge, which I imagine is financially similar, they subsidise each student themselves by an average of £6000 per year as it is, so it would be very unfair to not allow those universities to charge the highest fees in view of teaching and research cuts!

I didn't say Oxford shouldn't charge the full amount! In fact, I was criticising the government for slating Oxford for charging £9K when it knew that's exactly what would happen when they raised the upper limit.

Reply 22

infernalcradle

Original post by Vinchenko

I believe it already happens now - certainly at Cambridge, there's a special access scheme to enable students from poor schools to enable grades to be considered in context. (CSAS)

yes, but how low do the entry requirements become??

I doubt they will go from the current A*AA to BBB....most probably only a slight drop to AAA or even AAB at a push

Reply 23

im so academic

Original post by infernalcradle

yes, but how low do the entry requirements become??

I doubt they will go from the current A*AA to BBB....most probably only a slight drop to AAA or even AAB at a push

Wait a second, if I recall correctly, the CSAS doesn't reduce the entry requirements, but rather takes into your educational background etc, i.e. putting your UCAS application into "context" so to speak.

:lolwut:

Reply 24

Vinchenko

Original post by Addzter

I don't think they were slated for charging the full amount. They are amongst the best, they were who the top bracket of fees was designed for. I think the government is much more upset at other, less good, universities charging full fees - those who it was envisaged would only charge £6k at most, for example Aston Birmingham.

Reply 25

Vinchenko

Original post by infernalcradle

yes, but how low do the entry requirements become??

I doubt they will go from the current A*AA to BBB....most probably only a slight drop to AAA or even AAB at a push

Original post by im so academic

CSAS allows them to see your attainment in context. And if it is merited, lower offers will be made on an individual basis. Admittedly, often it will just be by a few grade points, but consider how much easier it is to get a B than an A* for example!! To get a B this summer I would need about 50% in one of my exams because of accumulated UMS, and I'll need 90% for an A*...so it really could make the difference when low teaching standards are all that stand between an able student and an Oxbridge place.

Reply 26

Leon Trotsky

Original post by Vinchenko

The Deputy Prime Minister certainly attacked Oxbridge for charging the full fee amount, saying it's "not up to them" whether they can charge £9K. I'm sure the government would also say it's not pleased about universities like Aston charging £9K (if they are), but that's not what this thread is about.

Reply 27

The_Lonely_Goatherd

Original post by Addzter

It made me so angry when he said that. What a **** :facepalm:

Reply 28

toofaforu

Original post by TurboCretin

I don't think Oxford will ever sacrifice its entry standards to comply with government whims. It's been operating virtually unchanged for hundreds of years; that's a lot of momentum.

you're joking right? some 50-70 years ago you could go to oxford whilst being a moron who hadnt demonstrated any academic ability whatsoever

Reply 29

Vinchenko

Original post by Addzter

Fair point, though it does seem to be showboating by the Dep PM to (fruitlessly) try and regain some of his lost credibility over fees! OFFA has no teeth and cannot 'decide' whether a university ought or ought not be allowed to charge full fees...it can merely look at access policies and see if they seem strong enough, and the guidelines for that are fairly relaxed! It has a staff of 4 and very little time in which to approve/reject fee arrangements, and will not be able to fully examine them for a predicted 3 years from now! I really think the government, even in it's deluded state of expecting an average of £7.5k fees, thought that oxbridge would charge the full and be allowed to, and that this is meaningless chat, but there we are. Certainly they are looking to threaten universities whenever they can to try and avoid the massive and now inevitable fees loan bill!

Reply 30

Leon Trotsky

Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd

It made me so angry when he said that. What a **** :facepalm:

I know, and Nick Clegg, of all people. The guy who made such a ridiculous u-turn from wanting to abolish tuition fees to supporting tripling them, saying that it shouldn't be up to our best universities to decide whether to charge the full amount. What a ****. :rolleyes:

Reply 31

Leon Trotsky

Original post by Vinchenko

I agree, it seems that they're just trying to claw back some modicum of respect by criticising universities for taking advantage of a tuition fees policy that they made happen, which is ridiculous.

Reply 32

danny111

No.

What they are doing is shifting the blame away from themselves. The government is failing kids across the country, but then have the cheek to say Oxford are being elitist. If the government would improve schools then maybe more kids from disadvantaged backgrounds might just end up at Oxford.

Reply 33

RK92

Original post by infernalcradle

yes, but how low do the entry requirements become??

I doubt they will go from the current A*AA to BBB....most probably only a slight drop to AAA or even AAB at a push

why should they offer BBB? i know of people who have been asked to self teach further maths because their college didnt offer it. oxbridge students should be able to get A*AA (at the very minimum) regardless of teaching standards. A*AA is a long, long way from BBB.

the fact they lower their offer from what they consider the bare minimur for their courses should be enough. oh... and the massive bursaries (£3400 p/a for anyone whose parents earn less than £25k p/a)... and the guarantees of relatively cheap accomodation for 4 years at some colleges... and the fact that they consider your schools average gcse performance when assessin applications.

Reply 34

TurboCretin

Original post by toofaforu

you're joking right? some 50-70 years ago you could go to oxford whilst being a moron who hadnt demonstrated any academic ability whatsoever

Uh-huh...and what does that have to do with the government?

Reply 35

JGR

Cameron wanted a good 30 second sound bite. He has neither the political will nor inclination to really attack Oxford.
Frankly, he should pick his fights more carefully.

The government already interfere with Oxford University to the extent that it pisses off the staff.
If the government started getting onerous and spiteful, I'm sure they'd love to tell them him where to stuff it, which the government can't really afford as it makes them look childish and dents confidence in their education policies.

Reply 36

James10000

Original post by storna

Oxford commands an excellent academic reputation, internationally, because it only accepts the very best and brightest. Even people with As and A*s are not guaranteed admission unless they demonstrate exceptional academic ability.

But will all this talk from the government about Oxford not having enough people from: a) poor backgrounds b) state schools c) of black ethnic origin put pressure on them to water down their strict academic standards to appear more diverse?

Will they start putting affirmative action and diversity before merit? Will this be voluntary (albeit through pressure) or will the government enforce it?

The introduction of A* will just make it harder for people from non privileged background to get into Oxbridge

Reply 37

Blueflare

I agree with the people saying that the problems relating to those from poor backgrounds not getting into Oxford is caused by things much lower down in the education system. It's not Oxford's fault poorer people and people of ethnic minorities had crappy schools.

Reply 38

JustMee

I wonder why...

May be because its cheaper to force Oxford to throw away their standards than it is to sort out this country's education system.

Reply 39

jumpingjesusholycow

No, just labour tribalists view anyone who isn't a personally destitute Bangladeshi migrant and on the dole as a billionaire, and as such, will draw comparisons to being Hitler, should they so much as seek a decent education in a world class university.