For all you anti gun hoplophobes on here

Original post by Hardballer

look its like an atheist argueing with a priest. I think its essential that a free society has the option to be as heavily armed as the government itself. You just think that guns equal more deaths which maybe they do in times of peace but I've shown you the statistics and shown you that it would take the USA 15,000 years to come anywhere near the bloodshed the last centuary as a result of being disarmed. But overall you're not going to agree with my libertarian viewpoint of you should be able to own anything, any inanimate object as long as you don't hurt anyone with it. different political idealogies.

Clearly.
But... You can't argue that all of the bloodshed from the last century is because some people weren't armed. There's a lot more to it than that.
At the end of the day, guns in a society that isn't at war = more deaths and more dangerous streets. I don't see that as a good thing. If we started another HUGE world war (because lets face it, those were exception circumstances), then possibly we should be armed.

Reply 722

Aj12

Original post by Hardballer

I'm going to leave you with something to think about
150 million people (in the last century alone) were disarmed and then slaughtered on mass by their government.

for those who are interested in statistics....

150,000,000 divided by 10,000 equals 15,000 years at the current US yearly gun death rate to match the number of defenceless unarmed people killed in that last 100 years by their government.

The two are not linked.

A few people with guns hardly stand a chance against a mech infantry division

Reply 723

Original post by GwrxVurfer

So how exactly do you think an unarmed society would stop them getting away with it? If they did start harming the population, you would be completely and utterly helpless.

Emae, your last statement is factually incorrect. Switzerland has remarkably low crime rates, despite almost every male being required to keep a rifle at home in case the country is ever attacked. This system (which primarily functions as a deterrence to hostile nations) has kept Switzerland free from conflicts for centuries now. Shooting at firing ranges is a very popular sport, you'll often see people with rifles heading off to the firing range. I don't know the exact system, but they have some sort of direct democracy, and a majority of the population recently voted in favour of keeping the gun laws they way they are. Murder is pretty much unheard of, and crime in general is very low.

They wouldn't get away with is because of the nature of our society. Forgetting what would happen here, the UN and our allies wouldn't allow it.
This government wouldn't dare anyway.

And if you'd read all my previous posts, I gave figures proving that while Switzerland has relatively low crime rates, their gun crime, murders, and deaths related to guns are fairly high (and all of their violent crime is higher than that of the UK).
I gave these figures earlier.

But Switzerland have a completely different society to us, with different ideals. We are more like the US in terms of ideals and people's reactions, so it's more realistic to compare how our society would handle guns with theirs.

Reply 724

Hardballer

OP

Original post by Emaemmaemily

(because lets face it, those were exception circumstances)

the sad fact of life is that genocide happens all time, its happening now in libya, it happened in europe only 70 years ago. in a society like this however I would say that at least pepper spray or a taser should be legal, its less lethal and would be an excellent deterant to rapists and muggers. Yes they could use it as well but if someones going to mug you they'll be tooled up anyway, whether they get an illegal weapon like a stun gun or a knife.

Reply 725

Good bloke

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Murder is pretty much unheard of

I think you'll find that this myth was exploded much earlier on in this thread so trotting out that old lie at this stage simply won't wash.

Accidental gun deaths and gun murders in Switzerland are both about three times higher than in England & Wales, and gun suicides reflect the easy availability of guns by being a whopping 29 times higher.

Reply 726

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Switzerland has remarkably low crime rates, despite almost every male being required to keep a rifle at home in case the country is ever attacked. Murder is pretty much unheard of, and crime in general is very low.

That's because they're not allowed ammunition.

I'm all in favour of guns being freely available if ammunition was very strictly controlled.

Reply 727

Original post by Hardballer

the sad fact of life is that genocide happens all time, its happening now in libya, it happened in europe only 70 years ago. in a society like this however I would say that at least pepper spray or a taser should be legal, its less lethal and would be an excellent deterant to rapists and muggers. Yes they could use it as well but if someones going to mug you they'll be tooled up anyway, whether they get an illegal weapon like a stun gun or a knife.

Yes it happens, but not in the UK. You can't compare us to Libya, and Europe changed A LOT after Hitler.
I agree, as I've said before, that things like pepper spray should be allowed.

Reply 728

Original post by GwrxVurfer

x

So, you pick up on mine [which was more poorly phrased than ignorant - I know they have it, but it is still strictly controlled] yet you ignore the post above mine which points out the larger errors of your post?

Reply 729

Good bloke

Original post by Drewski

So, you pick up on mine [which was more poorly phrased than ignorant - I know they have it, but it is still strictly controlled] yet you ignore the post above mine which points out the larger errors of your post?

He won't be answering that. It is too inconvenient.

Reply 730

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Finally, some common sense. Is it just guns then that you have an irrational fear of, and not batons, pepper spray, CS spray?

There's no irrational fear. I've looked up all of the stats, the facts about other countries that allow them, etc... And come to the conclusion that allowing guns to be owned by anyone and carried on the streets will only make our country more dangerous.
For reasons, see the endless pages on this thread that I have stated and backed this up with.

Reply 731

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Finally, some common sense. Is it just guns then that you have an irrational fear of, and not batons, pepper spray, CS spray?

To be afraid of something that was invented for the sole purpose of killing is not even slightly irrational.

Yes, 'the public' are allowed access to many other things which can cause death, but in almost all those cases, they can only cause death as a by-product of their original purpose. A car is not a tool of death, but can be used to kill, and so people must prove their ability to use one before being allowed to drive it. If the same rigourous testing was applied to gun ownership - with people being made to prove their skill, ability to use and reason for needing/wanting it - I would be far less wary.
I know plenty of people I wouldn't trust with a car. I know plenty more I wouldn't trust with a gun.

Fwiw, I'm a former Officer in the military. I know how to use handguns and rifles and have used both on many occasions. I am not anti-gun. I am, however, extremely anti-let everybody have guns, because quite simply, everybody can't be trusted.

Reply 732

Original post by GwrxVurfer

There is no point arguing with you, as your willingness to believe any rubbish shows.

Some poster, several pages ago, made a false claim that Swiss citizens were banned/heavily restricted in buying ammunition. He provided no proof (He can't, because his claim is false), yet you took it as gospel. I pointed out that this claim was false, yet some continue to regurgitate it.

Good Bloke also said that the statistics showing murder rates to be very low in Switzerland were a "myth". He arrived at this conclusion because some other user earlier in the thread lied that murder rates were high.

I cannot argue with people who share your hoplophobic attitude, because when you lose an argument, you make false claims, and even have the arrogance to suggest that you have somehow provided proof.

No one lied about murder rates being high... I provided official statistics and figures comparing countries.

Reply 733

Good bloke

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Good Bloke also said that the statistics showing murder rates to be very low in Switzerland were a "myth". He arrived at this conclusion because some other user earlier in the thread lied that murder rates were high.

They are here: http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

and here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rise-in-gun-crime-forces-swiss-to-reconsider-right-to-bear-arms-446946.html

and here: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Number_of_gun_deaths_goes_down_in_Switzerland.html?cid=29125162

and here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

There are many more sources.

All give figures consistent with Switerland having about three times the number of gun-related accidental deaths and homicides than England & Wales, and suicides almost 30 times higher.

Reply 734

Original post by GwrxVurfer

I don't believe you, for reasons relating to your paranoia of firearms.

I don't care. I know I'm right, and so do many of my friends. You could also check the couple of thousand posts I've made in the Armed Forces forum owing to my knowledge, but hey ho, we know you don't like checking sources and 'facts'.

I don't have paranoia towards firearms/all weapons. I have a paranoia towards idiots using them, and the lack of control over said idiots if/when they get drunk or high.

Yes, firearms are a visual deterrent, but only because of what they are able to do. Nobody looks at a missile and thinks "my, that long thin tube is remarkably scary", it's because of the 150kt warhead bolted to the top.

Reply 735

Hardballer

OP

Original post by Drewski

That's because they're not allowed ammunition.

I'm all in favour of guns being freely available if ammunition was very strictly controlled.

no thats not true, they can't keep government issued ammo at their houses but they can still keep ammo for their civilian guns for when they hunt and clay shoot.

Reply 736

Hardballer

OP

Original post by Good bloke

and gun suicides reflect the easy availability of guns by being a whopping 29 times higher

I downright refuse to take gun suicides into account, even if it wasn't for the fact they have legal suicide clinics down there in Switzerland. If someone really really wants to commit suicide they'll go to the highest building and throw themselves off

Reply 737

Hmm, my posts have been ignored.
Maybe because I proved (with SO much evidence, as has good bloke) that all countries that allow ANYONE to own firearms have much higher violent crime rates, especially those relating to guns.
I've explained how letting anyone have them will make the streets more dangerous, because it's exactly what happens elsewhere.

It doesn't matter if you want it for self-defense, because if you can have it for self-defense so can idiots and thugs who then use it to mug someone.
Plus, as soon as guns are made that readily available in a country, and it's ok to carry them, it's SO easy for illegal guns to be distributed to the criminals who wouldn't be allowed them legally.

The cons outweigh the pros for over all society.

Reply 738

Original post by GwrxVurfer

Drewski, I want a gun for self-defence, and I would undergo tests to prove competency in handling each type of gun I wanted. The only people who would have any reason to fear being shot are those who want to cause me life-threatening harm. I don't think you would want to cause me life-threatening harm, so I really don't understand why you would be so scared?

I genuinely would like you to answer that, because I just don't understand your hoplophobia at all.

But by the same token, why do you feel you need it for self defence? Where are all those people wishing to cause you life-threatening harm? How often have you encountered such things? I've lived all across the country - and in some fairly dodgy places abroad - in places which are commonly regarded as 'dangerous' [I lived in deepest, darkest Salford for 4yrs while at uni], I never once felt threatened, let alone threatened enough to wish I had some form of weapon on my person.

I'm not scared. I just don't want lots of weapons freely available to the wider public. While I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that a great many of the population would be responsible and safe with them [no doubt including yourself], it is those who wouldn't be that I don't want with them. We see it with car drivers [and I appreciate this is a rough analogy], that people follow all the rules properly to pass the test, but then don't get insurance, don't follow the rules, drive dangerously and don't get caught and stopped.... I don't have enough faith in the public to believe that the same thing wouldn't happen with guns, which is why I don't want them out there, as inconvenient as that might be to the law-abiding majority.

Reply 739