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The Arsenal Society VIII
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Original post by Theconomist
Yes buying 3-4 players that aren't drop dead expensive or hard to obtain is being football manager-esque.
Well look at madrid and city
Hell look at Barca and Milan.
ALmost every team that is winning something spent in the last transfer season.
Well look at madrid and city
Hell look at Barca and Milan.
ALmost every team that is winning something spent in the last transfer season.
Original post by Stalin
Here you go at it again.
Most of the times you lose an argument you bring in nothing new to the conversation.
I remember someone telling you a while ago to read more so that you can educate yourself more.
I really suggest you do.On pretty much everything since most of the times you do post something its just clueless rambling.
Theconomist, you aren't acting worthy of further indulgence, hence you receive none. Move on.
In a sad way I like that all hope is gone now, and that the tension and stress has left me for another few months.
What I think is wrong is that when I watch Arsenal now we don't have players who are willing to do absolutely everything - including getting nasty, dirty and cheating - which is what United and Chelsea (and even Liverpool) have.
These other teams have the audacity to surround referees and swear at them, wave imaginary cards, go in too hard to tackles to destroy our flair players. They all have that nastiness.
It isn't experience, it's a willingness to cheat and do anything you have to in order to win games. We used to have that edge, but now we find ourselves probably the most fouled team in the league having conceded 8 penalties and won only 7.
It is a ****ing embarrassment, and Arsene should be bold and tell it like it is. He should be facing end to end touchline bans until the referees start to feel the strain of his remonstrations. I'm tired of him being the mature one.
In a sad way I like that all hope is gone now, and that the tension and stress has left me for another few months.
What I think is wrong is that when I watch Arsenal now we don't have players who are willing to do absolutely everything - including getting nasty, dirty and cheating - which is what United and Chelsea (and even Liverpool) have.
These other teams have the audacity to surround referees and swear at them, wave imaginary cards, go in too hard to tackles to destroy our flair players. They all have that nastiness.
It isn't experience, it's a willingness to cheat and do anything you have to in order to win games. We used to have that edge, but now we find ourselves probably the most fouled team in the league having conceded 8 penalties and won only 7.
It is a ****ing embarrassment, and Arsene should be bold and tell it like it is. He should be facing end to end touchline bans until the referees start to feel the strain of his remonstrations. I'm tired of him being the mature one.
Original post by Gamma
Here you go Arsenal fans, have a lecture from a Man U fan (allegedly) on how to manage a team.
In all seriousness I understand what you're trying to say but Arsenal fans are very aware of this and they probably don't want someone else to spout off obvious flaws, if they are that is.
In all seriousness I understand what you're trying to say but Arsenal fans are very aware of this and they probably don't want someone else to spout off obvious flaws, if they are that is.
It doesn't matter I am a United fan, its the Arsenal Soc. The point is to discuss the team, regardless of which fan you are.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Theconomist
Ali Sisshokho
M.Sakho/Matt Hummels
Nuri Sahin/Thiago(this would lead to cesc going to other way unfortunately)/Pedro Leon(This dude will be next to free)
Moussa Sow/ Cavani / Gomez(unlikely but the dude is a goal machine.
Ali Sisshokho
M.Sakho/Matt Hummels
Nuri Sahin/Thiago(this would lead to cesc going to other way unfortunately)/Pedro Leon(This dude will be next to free)
Moussa Sow/ Cavani / Gomez(unlikely but the dude is a goal machine.
FM ftw! but you forgot Moussa Sissoko, Yann M'Vila...
Original post by Isometrix
Original post by Isometrix
FM ftw! but you forgot Moussa Sissoko, Yann M'Vila...
Sackho and Sow just scream FM 2011 tbh
Original post by RobbieC
What I think is wrong is that when I watch Arsenal now we don't have players who are willing to do absolutely everything - including getting nasty, dirty and cheating - which is what United and Chelsea (and even Liverpool) have.
These other teams have the audacity to surround referees and swear at them, wave imaginary cards, go in too hard to tackles to destroy our flair players. They all have that nastiness.
It isn't experience, it's a willingness to cheat and do anything you have to in order to win games. We used to have that edge, but now we find ourselves probably the most fouled team in the league having conceded 8 penalties and won only 7.
These other teams have the audacity to surround referees and swear at them, wave imaginary cards, go in too hard to tackles to destroy our flair players. They all have that nastiness.
It isn't experience, it's a willingness to cheat and do anything you have to in order to win games. We used to have that edge, but now we find ourselves probably the most fouled team in the league having conceded 8 penalties and won only 7.
I'd like to point out you are at the bottom of the disciplinary table. Chelsea are third, United and Liverpool are mid-table. You are 10th for the number of fouls conceded, and 10th for fouls won, pretty fair. Interestingly, United are second from bottom on fouls won, Chelsea & Man City, have been given less fouls.
People surround the referee because it has become part of the game, as has diving. But don't pretend for one second that Arsenal are any better for not hounding the referee.
Earlier you complain about Wenger being too protective of his players, now you are trying to shift it to Arsenal play too honest football, the rest of the league is dishonest and the referees are against you; you are being just as bad.
There really is no point in Wenger saying "blame me", if he is not going to change.
But it is true, we should blame Wenger and not the players. If you look at the United team, they'd turn out just like us if they were managed by Wenger. When Wenger puts Bendtner on wide right, and he performs poorly, you can't really blame Bendtner. The players are just following the managers instruction or lack of.
A team consisting of players such as Vermaelen/Sagna/Wilshere/Fabregas/Arshavin (17 assists)/RvP/Nasri should be challenging for the title. We certainly have the core quality in our side.
The fact that Wenger started the season with Almunia as our No 1, and then signed retired Lehmann in January, is one of the main reason as to why I think Wenger should leave.
But it is true, we should blame Wenger and not the players. If you look at the United team, they'd turn out just like us if they were managed by Wenger. When Wenger puts Bendtner on wide right, and he performs poorly, you can't really blame Bendtner. The players are just following the managers instruction or lack of.
A team consisting of players such as Vermaelen/Sagna/Wilshere/Fabregas/Arshavin (17 assists)/RvP/Nasri should be challenging for the title. We certainly have the core quality in our side.
The fact that Wenger started the season with Almunia as our No 1, and then signed retired Lehmann in January, is one of the main reason as to why I think Wenger should leave.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by T.Adams VI
I think Wenger should leave.
Firstly this needs to happen before if any signings occurs.
Original post by jit987
Firstly this needs to happen before if any signings occurs.
Yeah but Wenger is making the board serious bucks, so what the fans think doesn't really matter. It's quite clear he'll only be leaving when he wants to, which will probably be when he retires. This will all happen after he's found a replacement who is a clone of himself.
Wenger can be a prick sometimes.
Original post by T.Adams VI
Yeah but Wenger is making the board serious bucks, so what the fans think doesn't really matter. It's quite clear he'll only be leaving when he wants to, which will probably be when he retires. This will all happen after he's found a replacement who is a clone of himself.
Wenger can be a prick sometimes.
Wenger can be a prick sometimes.
That clone is Stojkovic, he's got the same philosophy as Wenger and is learning his trade at the same club out in Japan. If Pat Rice is actually going, then as Marcus said the other day, there's a good chance he'll be the one who replaces him before he takes over the senior role. I'm glad it'll give someone who Wenger will respect and bounce ideas off, I'm just worried that Stojkovic is trying to be Wenger so he won't disagree with anything Wenger says or does and he'll act with the same indiscipline we've become accustomed too.
if we are talking footy manager we want:
babacar, alexis sanchez, hazard, aguero, y'mvilla, canales, sakho etc..etc...
babacar, alexis sanchez, hazard, aguero, y'mvilla, canales, sakho etc..etc...
Original post by T.Adams VI
There really is no point in Wenger saying "blame me", if he is not going to change.
But it is true, we should blame Wenger and not the players. If you look at the United team, they'd turn out just like us if they were managed by Wenger. When Wenger puts Bendtner on wide right, and he performs poorly, you can't really blame Bendtner. The players are just following the managers instruction or lack of.
A team consisting of players such as Vermaelen/Sagna/Wilshere/Fabregas/Arshavin (17 assists)/RvP/Nasri should be challenging for the title. We certainly have the core quality in our side.
The fact that Wenger started the season with Almunia as our No 1, and then signed retired Lehmann in January, is one of the main reason as to why I think Wenger should leave.
But it is true, we should blame Wenger and not the players. If you look at the United team, they'd turn out just like us if they were managed by Wenger. When Wenger puts Bendtner on wide right, and he performs poorly, you can't really blame Bendtner. The players are just following the managers instruction or lack of.
A team consisting of players such as Vermaelen/Sagna/Wilshere/Fabregas/Arshavin (17 assists)/RvP/Nasri should be challenging for the title. We certainly have the core quality in our side.
The fact that Wenger started the season with Almunia as our No 1, and then signed retired Lehmann in January, is one of the main reason as to why I think Wenger should leave.
I thought you said previously that although you were frustrated with Wenger you didn't want him to leave, owing to the lack of a proven-quality replacement?
On a separate note, Allardyce was saying before the game yesterday that he thinks a problem with Arsene is that he always does the same tactic, regardless of opposition and whatever, whereas Chelsea and Man U adapt. The point I think Allardyce misses is that Barcelona do the same and they are very successful. However, he does have a point, and perhaps in the Premier League you are forced to adapt to the individual match more than La Liga, where most teams do a similar thing and it's more rare for teams to park the bus.
Wenger has built our squad so that our first XI, with no injuries, is very strong, but the players aren't very versatile. Players like Park, Giggs, Rooney, Fabio/Rafael, even O'Shea, can step in and do a very good job in a number of positions. That means they can both cope with injuries or needing to rest players (e.g. vs us in the FA Cup) and also adapt and position players as best suited to the match, which we can rarely manage. Cesc, Bendtner, Song, Sagna, Clichy, Vermaelen and mostly very good all-round players. They should be capable of playing in more positions, but are only truly adept in one position. For instance, having trained Sagna more in the CB position could have saved our ass at the Camp Nou last season, allowing us to play Vermaelen on the left side of the centre and keep SIlvestre away from the first XI. A player like O'Shea can play anywhere in the defence. We rarely stick our full backs on the wings, whereas Ferguson knows he can stick Fabio/Rafael/Evra on the wing and they will perform. Giggs filled in at LB, Valencia filled in at RB. None of our wingers would ever do that. Maybe that's why losing a utility player like Flamini hurt us so much. Chelsea suffer the same problem as us in this respect - they tried playing Fereira, for example, at CB and Zhirkov at CM when they were having their injury crisis earlier this season and they got absolutely killed by mid table teams. Basically, the point is that considering the inordinate amount of injuries we always suffer, Wenger should have built the squad as one that can cope by way of player versatility. I would like to see Vermaelen, for example, be able to step in to the DM position if Song is out. That would solve the problem of needing a backup. I suppose Wenger tried to make Song more versatile this season, and it was helpful, but to achieve this fully we would've needed somebody else to actually take over the DM role (i.e. Frimpong, Koscielny etc.) and that would've given Song real license to go forward. So Wenger did this, just in a half-arsed way.
Just my thoughts on our squad problems.
(edited 13 years ago)
Horrific last 2-3 months for Arsenal. Same old story, same old crumble. Except this crumble has been bigger than any previous crumbles.
There's definitely enough justification for Wenger to be shown the exit door, IMO. But I think the only way he will go is if he resigns. Can't see the board having the balls to sack him.
His unbeaten run comment was laughable tbh. At least he's come out and accepted some/alot of the blame for this dreadful collapse. He's got to start questionning whether he's the right man for the job as 6 years without silverware, including quite a few crumbles come the business end of seasons, is poor.
There's definitely enough justification for Wenger to be shown the exit door, IMO. But I think the only way he will go is if he resigns. Can't see the board having the balls to sack him.
His unbeaten run comment was laughable tbh. At least he's come out and accepted some/alot of the blame for this dreadful collapse. He's got to start questionning whether he's the right man for the job as 6 years without silverware, including quite a few crumbles come the business end of seasons, is poor.
The problem is that our faults are now so glaringly obvious to everyone, and yet Wenger still will not make the changes required. If he is prepared to get rid of the useless players in the summer, bring in some decent players with experience and also be more willing to change tactics/formations when necassary then he is still a great manager. However it's his relucatance to change anything which is the biggest problem, we all know that come next season we'll still have most of these players that have let us down so badly, plus maybe a youngster and maybe a substandard, cheap player with experience such as Silvestre or Squillaci. I honestly think he only has 1 season left, a lot of Arsenal fans have had enough now and if we are to have another similar season next year I really can't see him staying and he must know this so he might as well just really go for it this summer.
Original post by Ar5enal Fan
The problem is that our faults are now so glaringly obvious to everyone, and yet Wenger still will not make the changes required.
Glaringly obvious but not glaringly solveable.
In my opinion the areas you truly excel at are intertwined with the areas you don't. If you bring in some work horses in the middle with little technical ability you lose the fluidity and ability to move from back to front with such speed that's brought you so many goals. If you bring in a striker who'll be available for every game chances are he won't have a fraction of the technical ability and more importantly understanding of Van Persie. If you bring in 'solid' full backs you lose the width from your current players and that means teams will play narrower leaving less space in central positions where your better players work. If you bring in a solid shot stopper you lose the Polish keepers enigmatic style that leads to saves where no-one else can. If you bring in immobile beasts at centre back who'll win aerial duels they'll get slaughtered by strikers with pace especially with your high line.
To me the only easy solution is bringing in a few experienced leaders. Everything else will involve vast sums of money and as we've already seen there's little guaruntee they'll actually solve anything (Torres, Dzeko etc).
Original post by milkytea
I thought you said previously that although you were frustrated with Wenger you didn't want him to leave, owing to the lack of a proven-quality replacement?
On a separate note, Allardyce was saying before the game yesterday that he thinks a problem with Arsene is that he always does the same tactic, regardless of opposition and whatever, whereas Chelsea and Man U adapt. The point I think Allardyce misses is that Barcelona do the same and they are very successful. However, he does have a point, and perhaps in the Premier League you are forced to adapt to the individual match more than La Liga, where most teams do a similar thing and it's more rare for teams to park the bus.
Wenger has built our squad so that our first XI, with no injuries, is very strong, but the players aren't very versatile. Players like Park, Giggs, Rooney, Fabio/Rafael, even O'Shea, can step in and do a very good job in a number of positions. That means they can both cope with injuries or needing to rest players (e.g. vs us in the FA Cup) and also adapt and position players as best suited to the match, which we can rarely manage. Cesc, Bendtner, Song, Sagna, Clichy, Vermaelen and mostly very good all-round players. They should be capable of playing in more positions, but are only truly adept in one position. For instance, having trained Sagna more in the CB position could have saved our ass at the Camp Nou last season, allowing us to play Vermaelen on the left side of the centre and keep SIlvestre away from the first XI. A player like O'Shea can play anywhere in the defence. We rarely stick our full backs on the wings, whereas Ferguson knows he can stick Fabio/Rafael/Evra on the wing and they will perform. Giggs filled in at LB, Valencia filled in at RB. None of our wingers would ever do that. Maybe that's why losing a utility player like Flamini hurt us so much. Chelsea suffer the same problem as us in this respect - they tried playing Fereira, for example, at CB and Zhirkov at CM when they were having their injury crisis earlier this season and they got absolutely killed by mid table teams. Basically, the point is that considering the inordinate amount of injuries we always suffer, Wenger should have built the squad as one that can cope by way of player versatility. I would like to see Vermaelen, for example, be able to step in to the DM position if Song is out. That would solve the problem of needing a backup. I suppose Wenger tried to make Song more versatile this season, and it was helpful, but to achieve this fully we would've needed somebody else to actually take over the DM role (i.e. Frimpong, Koscielny etc.) and that would've given Song real license to go forward. So Wenger did this, just in a half-arsed way.
Just my thoughts on our squad problems.
On a separate note, Allardyce was saying before the game yesterday that he thinks a problem with Arsene is that he always does the same tactic, regardless of opposition and whatever, whereas Chelsea and Man U adapt. The point I think Allardyce misses is that Barcelona do the same and they are very successful. However, he does have a point, and perhaps in the Premier League you are forced to adapt to the individual match more than La Liga, where most teams do a similar thing and it's more rare for teams to park the bus.
Wenger has built our squad so that our first XI, with no injuries, is very strong, but the players aren't very versatile. Players like Park, Giggs, Rooney, Fabio/Rafael, even O'Shea, can step in and do a very good job in a number of positions. That means they can both cope with injuries or needing to rest players (e.g. vs us in the FA Cup) and also adapt and position players as best suited to the match, which we can rarely manage. Cesc, Bendtner, Song, Sagna, Clichy, Vermaelen and mostly very good all-round players. They should be capable of playing in more positions, but are only truly adept in one position. For instance, having trained Sagna more in the CB position could have saved our ass at the Camp Nou last season, allowing us to play Vermaelen on the left side of the centre and keep SIlvestre away from the first XI. A player like O'Shea can play anywhere in the defence. We rarely stick our full backs on the wings, whereas Ferguson knows he can stick Fabio/Rafael/Evra on the wing and they will perform. Giggs filled in at LB, Valencia filled in at RB. None of our wingers would ever do that. Maybe that's why losing a utility player like Flamini hurt us so much. Chelsea suffer the same problem as us in this respect - they tried playing Fereira, for example, at CB and Zhirkov at CM when they were having their injury crisis earlier this season and they got absolutely killed by mid table teams. Basically, the point is that considering the inordinate amount of injuries we always suffer, Wenger should have built the squad as one that can cope by way of player versatility. I would like to see Vermaelen, for example, be able to step in to the DM position if Song is out. That would solve the problem of needing a backup. I suppose Wenger tried to make Song more versatile this season, and it was helpful, but to achieve this fully we would've needed somebody else to actually take over the DM role (i.e. Frimpong, Koscielny etc.) and that would've given Song real license to go forward. So Wenger did this, just in a half-arsed way.
Just my thoughts on our squad problems.
Good post.
I said there wasn't any replacements I could find to replace Wenger, and it would be suicidal if we picked the wrong replacement. That doesn't mean I don't want Wenger to go though.
To be sensible for just one second as people demand Wenger's resignation/sacking, we have come close.
Fine, we may be experiencing the same collapse at the tail end of the season and there might be some fine tuning - through signings, conditioning of players or tactics that we need to reach the maturity that will see us dominate.
HOWEVER.
What do we have that we didn't have last season to take away?
- We dealt better with the bullying from teams like Stoke than we did a couple of seasons back
- We beat Chelsea and beat them well, with Drogba shackled
- We defeated Barcelona with a team including some very young and new players and showed some real resolve in the return leg where it was snatched away from us. But still, that victory was big for this team
- We reached a cup final, the worst one but we still got there and a one in a million bobble saw us defeated
- We have more options than we've had before as a squad (but I would agree we don't always use them tremendously well)
- We're starting to see the best of Theo and Jack, who - along with Ramsey - will be a fantastic base for our future (they already play with great maturity, the former two)
We did all that without our best CB for 90% of the season, Robin for half of it (his goalscoring has been incredible) and I think we need to see that we are close.
Fine it might be Arsene's shortcomings that mean we are not there, but we've not been this close on all fronts since we last won something.
I can wait another year if you can, Arsene.
You guys might not see it, but the breakthrough is inevitable.
Fine, we may be experiencing the same collapse at the tail end of the season and there might be some fine tuning - through signings, conditioning of players or tactics that we need to reach the maturity that will see us dominate.
HOWEVER.
What do we have that we didn't have last season to take away?
- We dealt better with the bullying from teams like Stoke than we did a couple of seasons back
- We beat Chelsea and beat them well, with Drogba shackled
- We defeated Barcelona with a team including some very young and new players and showed some real resolve in the return leg where it was snatched away from us. But still, that victory was big for this team
- We reached a cup final, the worst one but we still got there and a one in a million bobble saw us defeated
- We have more options than we've had before as a squad (but I would agree we don't always use them tremendously well)
- We're starting to see the best of Theo and Jack, who - along with Ramsey - will be a fantastic base for our future (they already play with great maturity, the former two)
We did all that without our best CB for 90% of the season, Robin for half of it (his goalscoring has been incredible) and I think we need to see that we are close.
Fine it might be Arsene's shortcomings that mean we are not there, but we've not been this close on all fronts since we last won something.
I can wait another year if you can, Arsene.
You guys might not see it, but the breakthrough is inevitable.
RvP would bang in 20+ goals a season if he wasn't injured, that's what's frustrating, we have the player to do it but he gets injured every season for at least 30% of it.
Original post by RobbieC
To be sensible for just one second as people demand Wenger's resignation/sacking, we have come close.
Fine, we may be experiencing the same collapse at the tail end of the season and there might be some fine tuning - through signings, conditioning of players or tactics that we need to reach the maturity that will see us dominate.
HOWEVER.
What do we have that we didn't have last season to take away?
- We dealt better with the bullying from teams like Stoke than we did a couple of seasons back
- We beat Chelsea and beat them well, with Drogba shackled
- We defeated Barcelona with a team including some very young and new players and showed some real resolve in the return leg where it was snatched away from us. But still, that victory was big for this team
- We reached a cup final, the worst one but we still got there and a one in a million bobble saw us defeated
- We have more options than we've had before as a squad (but I would agree we don't always use them tremendously well)
- We're starting to see the best of Theo and Jack, who - along with Ramsey - will be a fantastic base for our future (they already play with great maturity, the former two)
We did all that without our best CB for 90% of the season, Robin for half of it (his goalscoring has been incredible) and I think we need to see that we are close.
Fine it might be Arsene's shortcomings that mean we are not there, but we've not been this close on all fronts since we last won something.
I can wait another year if you can, Arsene.
You guys might not see it, but the breakthrough is inevitable.
Fine, we may be experiencing the same collapse at the tail end of the season and there might be some fine tuning - through signings, conditioning of players or tactics that we need to reach the maturity that will see us dominate.
HOWEVER.
What do we have that we didn't have last season to take away?
- We dealt better with the bullying from teams like Stoke than we did a couple of seasons back
- We beat Chelsea and beat them well, with Drogba shackled
- We defeated Barcelona with a team including some very young and new players and showed some real resolve in the return leg where it was snatched away from us. But still, that victory was big for this team
- We reached a cup final, the worst one but we still got there and a one in a million bobble saw us defeated
- We have more options than we've had before as a squad (but I would agree we don't always use them tremendously well)
- We're starting to see the best of Theo and Jack, who - along with Ramsey - will be a fantastic base for our future (they already play with great maturity, the former two)
We did all that without our best CB for 90% of the season, Robin for half of it (his goalscoring has been incredible) and I think we need to see that we are close.
Fine it might be Arsene's shortcomings that mean we are not there, but we've not been this close on all fronts since we last won something.
I can wait another year if you can, Arsene.
You guys might not see it, but the breakthrough is inevitable.
-No we haven't we got bullied by Bolton yesterday
-Counts for nothing at the end of the day against the worst Chelsea side since 2003
-Counted for nothing again and got completely dominated away from home
-Cup final run nothing to be proud of aswell struggled to get to the final in the first place against the mighty Ipswich Town
-No we don't we have a lot of deadweight in the squad
-Theo and Jack have improved but their progress will stagnate if being played with clowns
-Ultimately being close is not good enough
We have been without Vermaelen but you need to understand all the top teams underperformed this year flattering Arsenal in the process, with the same mentality next year and with Man City/Liverpool/Spurs on the up CL qualification could be in jeopardy.
(edited 13 years ago)
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