Big 4 and CRB Checks
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I already rang them.
Their advice was to declare it and all declarations were evaluated on an individual basis. They couldn't give me more information on what kind of decision they would come to but they told me to supply as much information as possible on the event in question.
Their advice in the end was to declare it and that if they found out in the future it could jeopardise my ICAEW membership but they didn't make it explicit that I would be subject to immediate dismissal if I did fail to do so. They kept it subjective and free from value judgements which left me just as concerned as before about how they would view it.
Their advice was to declare it and all declarations were evaluated on an individual basis. They couldn't give me more information on what kind of decision they would come to but they told me to supply as much information as possible on the event in question.
Their advice in the end was to declare it and that if they found out in the future it could jeopardise my ICAEW membership but they didn't make it explicit that I would be subject to immediate dismissal if I did fail to do so. They kept it subjective and free from value judgements which left me just as concerned as before about how they would view it.
(edited 13 years ago)
Of course admin workers can't give commital statements - but doesn't that tell you its not a case of "any blemish and your out" - which would just not be workable in the real world in UK law - and that in a case by case basis - you'd be fine - as your blemish is ludicrous.
Nothing is going to make you feel better about this as you have an IRRATIONAL FEAR - so just declare it and stop posting about it in the meantime.
Then when everything is fine - be sure to post on this thread and let future irrational worriers know.
Honestly, I'd be more embarrassed that I got into a fight and didn't do any damage - are you related to Audley Harrison per chance?
Nothing is going to make you feel better about this as you have an IRRATIONAL FEAR - so just declare it and stop posting about it in the meantime.
Then when everything is fine - be sure to post on this thread and let future irrational worriers know.
Honestly, I'd be more embarrassed that I got into a fight and didn't do any damage - are you related to Audley Harrison per chance?
To clear up some facts for you...
1 - the caution will show on your CRB check, standard or enhance (refer to http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/recruitmen/general/pre-employment-checks.htm). Accountancy is specifically exempt under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. That means that a spent conviction or caution will always be disclosed on your CRB checks (standard and enhanced).
2 - the ICAEW require you to be "fit and proper" to practice. The "proper" part is the bit which could catch you out. If you lie and say no criminal record and they find it out, you can forget it. Each case is on an individual basis. I know someone who was convicted of defrauding their own company and wasn't removed from the institute. Likewise others are removed for drink driving convictions. I would have thought that a common assault caution would be OK, but no one can say 100% except the institute.
3 - if you don't declare it and they don't CRB you (they do it on a random sample, not on everyone) then you will almost 100% have to do one at some point. Banks, large corporations and defence companies will almost all require additional checks to be performed on the entire audit team before you go in, so you will eventually be found out. This is even more true if you work in advisory.
Just tell the truth. You won't get anywhere if you lie. Can't help much more than that, sorry - there's no definite answer
1 - the caution will show on your CRB check, standard or enhance (refer to http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/recruitmen/general/pre-employment-checks.htm). Accountancy is specifically exempt under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. That means that a spent conviction or caution will always be disclosed on your CRB checks (standard and enhanced).
2 - the ICAEW require you to be "fit and proper" to practice. The "proper" part is the bit which could catch you out. If you lie and say no criminal record and they find it out, you can forget it. Each case is on an individual basis. I know someone who was convicted of defrauding their own company and wasn't removed from the institute. Likewise others are removed for drink driving convictions. I would have thought that a common assault caution would be OK, but no one can say 100% except the institute.
3 - if you don't declare it and they don't CRB you (they do it on a random sample, not on everyone) then you will almost 100% have to do one at some point. Banks, large corporations and defence companies will almost all require additional checks to be performed on the entire audit team before you go in, so you will eventually be found out. This is even more true if you work in advisory.
Just tell the truth. You won't get anywhere if you lie. Can't help much more than that, sorry - there's no definite answer
Hello everyone,
Hopefully I can shine some light on this through my research as I myself have been very worried! I'm in a similar situation, having been offered a position with one of the Big 4. Whilst I don't have a criminal record, I have some kind of record stored away.
I got excessively drunk one night and was unfortunately arrested for being *drunk in a public place*. I received a Penalty Notice for Disorder fining me £50.
When you apply for student membership at the ICAEW, you are asked to provide information on criminal convictions and guilty pleas, and crucially, anything similar.
Because it says, 'anything similar,' I am going to disclose the penalty notice for disorder. And you should disclose your caution. It wants you too.
The maximum criminal record disclosure the ICAEW issues is a standard disclosure. Cautions will appear, penalty notices for disorder won't. I'm still going to disclose it though, because the ICAEW asks for anything similar.
I have come to the conclusion that I want to tell them, because I'm an honest person. Also, I wouldn't want to bear the worry that in the future, there will be new legislation stating that accountants are now facing enhanced disclosures.
I've been worrying about this so much. However, now that I have decided I will disclose it when the time comes, I have stopped worrying a lot.
Honesty is really the best policy.
Anyway, as said I was going to shine some light on the situation. If you look thoroughly on the internet in the early hours worrying like I have done, you will come across some very interesting documents on the ICAEW site that deal with disciplinary procedures.
This is how it works:
A member of the ICAEW gets a report about one of its members that they have been naughty in some way, be it falsifying an audit document, being dishonest or breaking the laws of the institute or of the country.
That person is then brought to a panel and is then disciplined by the Institute. The member will either be found to have done nothing significant, or will be reprimanded, severely reprimanded or excluded.
There are members of the institute that have done similar offences to common assault, and worse, that have NOT been excluded from the institute.
It is also important to note that common assault is far more damaging when you are a member of the institute compared to when you are not. When you are a member, you agree to abide by certain rules.
I will definitely disclose my fine when the time comes. Sure I will be a bit nervous, but not worried, as I know I've done the right thing.
Hope all that helps!
Hopefully I can shine some light on this through my research as I myself have been very worried! I'm in a similar situation, having been offered a position with one of the Big 4. Whilst I don't have a criminal record, I have some kind of record stored away.
I got excessively drunk one night and was unfortunately arrested for being *drunk in a public place*. I received a Penalty Notice for Disorder fining me £50.
When you apply for student membership at the ICAEW, you are asked to provide information on criminal convictions and guilty pleas, and crucially, anything similar.
Because it says, 'anything similar,' I am going to disclose the penalty notice for disorder. And you should disclose your caution. It wants you too.
The maximum criminal record disclosure the ICAEW issues is a standard disclosure. Cautions will appear, penalty notices for disorder won't. I'm still going to disclose it though, because the ICAEW asks for anything similar.
I have come to the conclusion that I want to tell them, because I'm an honest person. Also, I wouldn't want to bear the worry that in the future, there will be new legislation stating that accountants are now facing enhanced disclosures.
I've been worrying about this so much. However, now that I have decided I will disclose it when the time comes, I have stopped worrying a lot.
Honesty is really the best policy.
Anyway, as said I was going to shine some light on the situation. If you look thoroughly on the internet in the early hours worrying like I have done, you will come across some very interesting documents on the ICAEW site that deal with disciplinary procedures.
This is how it works:
A member of the ICAEW gets a report about one of its members that they have been naughty in some way, be it falsifying an audit document, being dishonest or breaking the laws of the institute or of the country.
That person is then brought to a panel and is then disciplined by the Institute. The member will either be found to have done nothing significant, or will be reprimanded, severely reprimanded or excluded.
There are members of the institute that have done similar offences to common assault, and worse, that have NOT been excluded from the institute.
It is also important to note that common assault is far more damaging when you are a member of the institute compared to when you are not. When you are a member, you agree to abide by certain rules.
I will definitely disclose my fine when the time comes. Sure I will be a bit nervous, but not worried, as I know I've done the right thing.
Hope all that helps!
Is it not important to let the company know before accepting their offer rather than waiting til the stage of declaring to the ICAEW? if pwc or kpmg etc run a crb check and you haven't told them surely it would show up and there would be problems... surely they ask at some point about convictions and warnings before offering you a job?
I notified the firm when I sent all the contract back. I never heard anything about it from the firm and I have been processed in the usual way. I had a PND anyway so no conviction, caution etc
The ICAEW is responsible for the history of the accountants, and to a far lesser extent, the firms themselves.
The ICAEW is responsible for the history of the accountants, and to a far lesser extent, the firms themselves.
Found this:
http://www.copessolicitors.co.uk/case_studies/recent_icaew_disciplinary_press_releases/
"The Case of John"
When John applied for provisional membership in 2008 he disclosed a criminal conviction in 2006 for grievous bodily harm, when he had been given a suspended prison sentence and ordered to pay £10,000 compensation to his victim. What he did not disclose at that time was that in the previous year, he had been convicted of common assault, given a community order and ordered to pay compensation of £50.
The ICAEW’s Learning & Professional Development Department approved John’s application for provisional membership, but passed the file to the Professional Conduct Department. It was only then that the first conviction came to light.
John was asked why he had not disclosed to the Institute details concerning the first conviction. He explained that he had been given advice from a police constable friend that the conviction need not be disclosed to his professional body. That advice was wrong.
Both convictions were referred to the Disciplinary Committee where John was supported by his employer who described John as conscientious and well thought of by his colleagues. John was reprimanded with no order for costs.
The Disciplinary Committee recorded its concern that John had already served nine months of his training contract when he appeared before the Disciplinary Committee. Nevertheless, John was singularly fortunate in only receiving a reprimand, despite having a double criminal record for violence.
http://www.copessolicitors.co.uk/case_studies/recent_icaew_disciplinary_press_releases/
"The Case of John"
When John applied for provisional membership in 2008 he disclosed a criminal conviction in 2006 for grievous bodily harm, when he had been given a suspended prison sentence and ordered to pay £10,000 compensation to his victim. What he did not disclose at that time was that in the previous year, he had been convicted of common assault, given a community order and ordered to pay compensation of £50.
The ICAEW’s Learning & Professional Development Department approved John’s application for provisional membership, but passed the file to the Professional Conduct Department. It was only then that the first conviction came to light.
John was asked why he had not disclosed to the Institute details concerning the first conviction. He explained that he had been given advice from a police constable friend that the conviction need not be disclosed to his professional body. That advice was wrong.
Both convictions were referred to the Disciplinary Committee where John was supported by his employer who described John as conscientious and well thought of by his colleagues. John was reprimanded with no order for costs.
The Disciplinary Committee recorded its concern that John had already served nine months of his training contract when he appeared before the Disciplinary Committee. Nevertheless, John was singularly fortunate in only receiving a reprimand, despite having a double criminal record for violence.
So Nav on the basis of that post are you saying to keep schtum or re-iterating that there is nothing to worry about.
I mean my caution pales in severity in comparison to "John's" conviction for common assault and very serious conviction of GBH, which he declared to the ICAEW and was still given provisional membership in spite of this before being carted infront on the ICAEW for failing to provide details of his first conviction. Even then he got off scott free.
Enlightening and appreciated Nav.
I mean my caution pales in severity in comparison to "John's" conviction for common assault and very serious conviction of GBH, which he declared to the ICAEW and was still given provisional membership in spite of this before being carted infront on the ICAEW for failing to provide details of his first conviction. Even then he got off scott free.
Enlightening and appreciated Nav.
(edited 13 years ago)
AirGuitar -
Re-iterating there is nothing to worry about, disclose it-
Everyone should disclose as unless its really serious (perhaps racially motivated/sex offence or theft/fraud with employer) then I think its safe to say they'll let you in as per model citizen "John".
I remember discussing my conviction for DD with them they seemed to think it wasn't relevant, but I ticked "no" and I heard nothing back - in the light of discussions on here I have decided to send them the PNC file and court documents and disclose it - should they kick me out I'll let you know - as I'm thinking if down the line I get brought before a tribunal - they may check my records realise I didn't disclose my spent conviction on joining and hold it against me.
I'll let you know what happens. I'm sure it will be fine.
Re-iterating there is nothing to worry about, disclose it-
Everyone should disclose as unless its really serious (perhaps racially motivated/sex offence or theft/fraud with employer) then I think its safe to say they'll let you in as per model citizen "John".
I remember discussing my conviction for DD with them they seemed to think it wasn't relevant, but I ticked "no" and I heard nothing back - in the light of discussions on here I have decided to send them the PNC file and court documents and disclose it - should they kick me out I'll let you know - as I'm thinking if down the line I get brought before a tribunal - they may check my records realise I didn't disclose my spent conviction on joining and hold it against me.
I'll let you know what happens. I'm sure it will be fine.
http://www.accountancymagazine.com/croner/jsp/Editorial.do?channelId=-305535&contentId=804617&channelId=-305031&linkName=ICAEW+disciplinaries&invokingPortal=Accy_Mag&BV_UseBVCookie=yes
all recent ICAEW tribunal case hearings from the ICAEW - mostly qualified, occasional students.
I read a student forged her training supervisors signatures on her training returns - they still let her off - although with a fine, another student got off even though he stole £25k from KPMG in false expenses by citing personal problems...
This month they fined a member £1600 for being charged with beating his wife and kicked him out - obviously a "sensitive crime"
all recent ICAEW tribunal case hearings from the ICAEW - mostly qualified, occasional students.
I read a student forged her training supervisors signatures on her training returns - they still let her off - although with a fine, another student got off even though he stole £25k from KPMG in false expenses by citing personal problems...
This month they fined a member £1600 for being charged with beating his wife and kicked him out - obviously a "sensitive crime"
(edited 13 years ago)
Well they took their time in getting back....
"Thank you for providing documentation relating to your criminal convictions received in 2004.
On the basis of the information you provided, I can confirm that no further action will be necessary in this case. Your record will be amended to show that you have provided information regarding a mandatory declaration.
Please not that you do not need to make any future declarations with regards to this conviction as this matter is now closed"
So going on my case:
I got a criminal conviction for failing to provide a specimin of breath/drink drive
This was spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act
I did not disclose it when I signed up to ICAEW initially
I then disclosed
Nothing happened
So please put into perspective what you have "done" when you are worrying yourself for nothing - always declare everything - cautions won't matter - they weren't serious enough to warrant any further action. Regards convictions - as long as its not fraud/theft or something really serious, you will be fine - even if it is fraud/theft or violence - a good character reference and supporting documentation should see you through unless its something distasteful.
If you don't declare - you will have to explain why you didn't when you finally do - in my case I cited the people at disclosure scotland and the police's bad advice - they always say if an offence is spent you don't have to declare it and that they can't give you a copy of your offence to provide to anyone.
If its serious enough to stop you getting membership - then when they do find out they'll kick you out - so you gain nothing from hiding anything.
I'd advise against hiding anything and letting them find out about you hiding it when you get pulled up for something else like a complaint from a client or the courts inform them you've just got done for something - then you'll probably be kicked out or at least fined heavily. But I dare say you can blag it.
"Thank you for providing documentation relating to your criminal convictions received in 2004.
On the basis of the information you provided, I can confirm that no further action will be necessary in this case. Your record will be amended to show that you have provided information regarding a mandatory declaration.
Please not that you do not need to make any future declarations with regards to this conviction as this matter is now closed"
So going on my case:
I got a criminal conviction for failing to provide a specimin of breath/drink drive
This was spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act
I did not disclose it when I signed up to ICAEW initially
I then disclosed
Nothing happened
So please put into perspective what you have "done" when you are worrying yourself for nothing - always declare everything - cautions won't matter - they weren't serious enough to warrant any further action. Regards convictions - as long as its not fraud/theft or something really serious, you will be fine - even if it is fraud/theft or violence - a good character reference and supporting documentation should see you through unless its something distasteful.
If you don't declare - you will have to explain why you didn't when you finally do - in my case I cited the people at disclosure scotland and the police's bad advice - they always say if an offence is spent you don't have to declare it and that they can't give you a copy of your offence to provide to anyone.
If its serious enough to stop you getting membership - then when they do find out they'll kick you out - so you gain nothing from hiding anything.
I'd advise against hiding anything and letting them find out about you hiding it when you get pulled up for something else like a complaint from a client or the courts inform them you've just got done for something - then you'll probably be kicked out or at least fined heavily. But I dare say you can blag it.
(edited 13 years ago)
I am also in about to start KPMG and I wasn't checked either? Anyhow, its a caution, we all make mistakes, there is nothing suggesting they will sack you, as long as your not a liar.
Here is my experience, from a 2009 2:1 Graduate of a Russell Group University.
I have 2 convictions.
One is for conspiracy to commit criminal damage (effectively just an agreement with a friend to spray paint on some property) when I was 18.
The second is slightly more serious, GBH. It happened in a pub as I was defending my girlfriend who was thrown to the floor by a drunken guy. One punch fractured an eye socket (in the eyes of the law, this is GBH) The judge acknowledged it was self defence however he deemed it to be excessive force.
In January this year, I was offered a place on the management consultancy graduate scheme of a well known French based Multi-National Corporation.
When I disclosed my convictions, they withdrew their offer, citing the fact I would not receive public sector clearance to work on government projects.
Dissapointed I continued my job search, when 2 weeks ago I was offered the position of executive assistant to the CFO of a global fashion brand.
Again, I disclosed my convictions and again they withdrew their offer. This time no explanation was given.
Very surprised with some of your responses when you disclosed to your employer as I have had no luck with mine!
BluePencil
I have 2 convictions.
One is for conspiracy to commit criminal damage (effectively just an agreement with a friend to spray paint on some property) when I was 18.
The second is slightly more serious, GBH. It happened in a pub as I was defending my girlfriend who was thrown to the floor by a drunken guy. One punch fractured an eye socket (in the eyes of the law, this is GBH) The judge acknowledged it was self defence however he deemed it to be excessive force.
In January this year, I was offered a place on the management consultancy graduate scheme of a well known French based Multi-National Corporation.
When I disclosed my convictions, they withdrew their offer, citing the fact I would not receive public sector clearance to work on government projects.
Dissapointed I continued my job search, when 2 weeks ago I was offered the position of executive assistant to the CFO of a global fashion brand.
Again, I disclosed my convictions and again they withdrew their offer. This time no explanation was given.
Very surprised with some of your responses when you disclosed to your employer as I have had no luck with mine!
BluePencil
BluePencil -
Sorry to hear a couple of silly incidents have affected things for you.
Not trying to patrionise you - sure you've looked at all options and apps very carefully but I had a thought -
Maybe you could do a quick part time volunteering job in local youth centre/police or something. This way they would have to CRB check you.
You could then put this as hobbies/interests on your applications - and it may help alleviate any fears from a prospective employer about you failing CRB clearance?
I do think it comes down to how you tell the story of what happened.
Sadly the picture your convictions paint is graffitti vandal and drunken lout. More importantly these are recent offences - i.e. not spent.
Unspent convictions can limit international travel.
Any supporting personal statement and/or character reference could help. Why not speak to your Uni and ask if they could help as a reference and discuss the issues you have faced to see how you can improve the situation?
I always carefully word what I say and the court recrods show I was given the most leniant fine and no penalty points.
Sorry to hear a couple of silly incidents have affected things for you.
Not trying to patrionise you - sure you've looked at all options and apps very carefully but I had a thought -
Maybe you could do a quick part time volunteering job in local youth centre/police or something. This way they would have to CRB check you.
You could then put this as hobbies/interests on your applications - and it may help alleviate any fears from a prospective employer about you failing CRB clearance?
I do think it comes down to how you tell the story of what happened.
Sadly the picture your convictions paint is graffitti vandal and drunken lout. More importantly these are recent offences - i.e. not spent.
Unspent convictions can limit international travel.
Any supporting personal statement and/or character reference could help. Why not speak to your Uni and ask if they could help as a reference and discuss the issues you have faced to see how you can improve the situation?
I always carefully word what I say and the court recrods show I was given the most leniant fine and no penalty points.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by nav1980
BluePencil -
Sorry to hear a couple of silly incidents have affected things for you.
Not trying to patrionise you - sure you've looked at all options and apps very carefully but I had a thought -
Maybe you could do a quick part time volunteering job in local youth centre/police or something. This way they would have to CRB check you.
You could then put this as hobbies/interests on your applications - and it may help alleviate any fears from a prospective employer about you failing CRB clearance?
I do think it comes down to how you tell the story of what happened.
Sadly the picture your convictions paint is graffitti vandal and drunken lout. More importantly these are recent offences - i.e. not spent.
Unspent convictions can limit international travel.
Any supporting personal statement and/or character reference could help. Why not speak to your Uni and ask if they could help as a reference and discuss the issues you have faced to see how you can improve the situation?
I always carefully word what I say and the court recrods show I was given the most leniant fine and no penalty points.
Sorry to hear a couple of silly incidents have affected things for you.
Not trying to patrionise you - sure you've looked at all options and apps very carefully but I had a thought -
Maybe you could do a quick part time volunteering job in local youth centre/police or something. This way they would have to CRB check you.
You could then put this as hobbies/interests on your applications - and it may help alleviate any fears from a prospective employer about you failing CRB clearance?
I do think it comes down to how you tell the story of what happened.
Sadly the picture your convictions paint is graffitti vandal and drunken lout. More importantly these are recent offences - i.e. not spent.
Unspent convictions can limit international travel.
Any supporting personal statement and/or character reference could help. Why not speak to your Uni and ask if they could help as a reference and discuss the issues you have faced to see how you can improve the situation?
I always carefully word what I say and the court recrods show I was given the most leniant fine and no penalty points.
Hi Nav,
Great idea with the volunteering.
I actually set up my own youth art gallery where I live, it lasted a little while before I had to shut it because of funding issues.
I think you can get a CRB check done yourself?
With both job offers I had some outstanding references ready and asked both times if I could come in and discuss it in person. Unfortunately I was denied the opportunity on the two ocassions so it was down at a carefully crafted piece of writing to do the trick. It didn't work.
You are right about them being unspent too. It's annoying really because the criminal damage happened in May 2006 but didn't resolve until March 2010. Likewise the assault happened March 2009 and didn't finish until Oct 2010.
I think I was aiming 'too high' with my jobs.
A management consultant and assistant to the executive board both carry a lot of responsibilty. It is annoying because I got both jobs on merit, guess the employers didn't want to take a chance.
Do you have any idea of industrys where convictions might be less of an issue?
Blue Pencil
CRB - what employers must use (why you see some jobs advertised as "must have recent CRB - it costs £50 or something)
DisclosureScotland say you can't get a CRB yourself.
The quickest way I can think without actually commiting to a job is to volounteer somewhere with kids/vulnerable people - by law they must CRB check you - and when they do you then get a copy in the post.
I'd be upfront and explain you need a CRB and want to help kids about uni choices and explain how a criminal record can affect you to those kids who have dropped out of education.
Other documents - employers can't ask for but could be investigated by professional bodies
- PNC file from the police - £20
- court records from the courts you were sentenced - £10
This will be all the records kept on you. You can then spin what happened using artistic licence...
Straight away the fact the criminal damage was 4 years ago will change people's perceptions - you need to make sure this is clear when you disclose (sure you do)
If your CV shows you have been CRB checked (mention this in the disclosure section) - again this will change people's perceptions.
I don't think you should not apply to any job because of your convictions - try everything.
You are obviously good enough on merit, don't let this affect you.
If you get nowhere maybe go for smaller firms or established careers with more entry points and less formal HR departments - but do something which has the potential to build you and move into where you want later.
Alternatively suck it up and intern for free in the fields you want to help strentghen your CV against the competition and compensate for the slight blemish.
These past incidents will have no relevance to your future once you get that first decent employer on the CV - whether intern or job.
DisclosureScotland say you can't get a CRB yourself.
The quickest way I can think without actually commiting to a job is to volounteer somewhere with kids/vulnerable people - by law they must CRB check you - and when they do you then get a copy in the post.
I'd be upfront and explain you need a CRB and want to help kids about uni choices and explain how a criminal record can affect you to those kids who have dropped out of education.
Other documents - employers can't ask for but could be investigated by professional bodies
- PNC file from the police - £20
- court records from the courts you were sentenced - £10
This will be all the records kept on you. You can then spin what happened using artistic licence...
Straight away the fact the criminal damage was 4 years ago will change people's perceptions - you need to make sure this is clear when you disclose (sure you do)
If your CV shows you have been CRB checked (mention this in the disclosure section) - again this will change people's perceptions.
I don't think you should not apply to any job because of your convictions - try everything.
You are obviously good enough on merit, don't let this affect you.
If you get nowhere maybe go for smaller firms or established careers with more entry points and less formal HR departments - but do something which has the potential to build you and move into where you want later.
Alternatively suck it up and intern for free in the fields you want to help strentghen your CV against the competition and compensate for the slight blemish.
These past incidents will have no relevance to your future once you get that first decent employer on the CV - whether intern or job.
(edited 13 years ago)
Sound advice
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