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Original post by Femto
It's so ahead of its time:
In what sense? Rachmaninoff is generally thought of as backwards looking.
Original post by j.alexanderh
In what sense? Rachmaninoff is generally thought of as backwards looking.
I do think that piece in particular has a very modern feel to it.
I wasn't aware that he was thought of as backwards looking - what's your justification for that? Just out of interest is all
Original post by Femto
I do think that piece in particular has a very modern feel to it.
I wasn't aware that he was thought of as backwards looking - what's your justification for that? Just out of interest is all
I wasn't aware that he was thought of as backwards looking - what's your justification for that? Just out of interest is all
He's famous as a sort of 'last great Romantic' figure, continuing to write with a nineteenth century vocabulary while the aesthetic was shifting around him. Schoenberg and fellow Russian Scriabin were contemporaries who began experimenting with atonality quite a while before before Rach wrote that prelude:
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by j.alexanderh
He's famous as a sort of 'last great Romantic' figure, continuing to write with a nineteenth century vocabulary while the aesthetic was shifting around him. Schoenberg and fellow Russian Scriabin were contemporaries who began experimenting with atonality quite a while before before Rach wrote that prelude.
Rach was noted for putting some jazz influences in his later works. Not the prelude, but the latter two piano concertos have a definite 'flick' to them. He remained original within the old style.
Original post by jsb123
Rach was noted for putting some jazz influences in his later works. Not the prelude, but the latter two piano concertos have a definite 'flick' to them. He remained original within the old style.
Hey, I'm not questioning his originality. Bach was backwards looking too, doesn't make him uninteresting.
Still don't like Rach though
It's a bit strange how I have a strong aversion to the Russian Romantics but I love the Russian C20 stuff.
Original post by j.alexanderh
Hey, I'm not questioning his originality. Bach was backwards looking too, doesn't make him uninteresting.
Still don't like Rach though It's a bit strange how I have a strong aversion to the Russian Romantics but I love the Russian C20 stuff.
Still don't like Rach though
It's a bit strange how I have a strong aversion to the Russian Romantics but I love the Russian C20 stuff.How can you not like Tchaikovsky
Original post by Nephilim
That's like a scientist who doesn't admire Einstein 
.
Even though Chopin is my piano role-model, the person who has influenced my own style the most is Bach.
.Even though Chopin is my piano role-model, the person who has influenced my own style the most is Bach.
Having studied Chopin's music and life in extensive detail now for around two years, I can assure you, Chopin and Bach are not all that different. Chopin grew up on Bach and absolutely loved his music in every way, even citing Bach as one of the two greatest influences that shaped his own music.
It may not be immediately evident but on closer inspection Bach's influence on Chopin becomes clear - one need look no further than Chopin's Nocturnes to see Bach's harmony and counterpoint shining through in the Romantic composer's work. Attention should also be paid to Chopin's Op. 28 Preludes (one in each key), written as commissioned works, but very obviously with Bach's works in mind.
In one of his early Paris letters, Chopin also mentions sitting around all day correcting the recent French editions of Bach.
Original post by Nephilim
I'm thinking about writing a ballade myself. Has anyone got any tips for conveying narrative?
I'm thinking about writing a ballade myself. Has anyone got any tips for conveying narrative?
If you're thinking of writing a Ballade in the style of Chopin, you should consider a number of things. It would be worth reading up on Chopin - a man who absolutely hated the idea of 'narrative' music. For all that is essentially what a Ballade is, we must realise that this isn't quite what Chopin intended as such, and as the creator of the musical ballade, we should stay true to Chopin's intentions. If you look closely at Chopin's 4 Ballades you'll note recurring themes - the time signature being significant. The first is in (mostly) 6|4, and all the others are in 6|8 so there is this idea of compound duple time throughout the ballades - also in the second ballade particularly Chopin presents this idea of the Sicilliano dance and contrasts it with a much more turbulent interludes. This could create an idea of a peaceful day in nature by the riverside, interrupted violently by a storm. Chopin writes similarly in his F major Nocturne Op 15 No 1.
Another important part of the Ballades is thematic development throughout which is perhaps most used in the 4th Ballade in F minor. Structure is also a vital part of the instrumental ballades of Chopin where he almost creates his own structure to the pieces - he gives us many different hints of sonata form and rondo form so it could be said that to write a Chopin style ballade a good way to go about it may be:
Andante, calm, lyrical opening section in 6|8
Andante, more anguished and stormy section in 6|8
Repeat of the first section with some changes and perhaps modulating to a new key with a short codetta
Development on themes from the first two sections in different keys in an A-B-A-B'-A-B'' form
Restatement of original ideas then redevelopment of them, building up to a climax towards the end, but finishing the ballade relatively calmly.
If you'd like any advice, feel free to send me a PM.
Original post by j.alexanderh
Hey, I'm not questioning his originality. Bach was backwards looking too, doesn't make him uninteresting.
I'm sorry, but Bach was absolutely not backwards looking at all as a composer. His music was no less than revolutionary and provided the grounds for the further development of The Western Classical Tradition. Cast your eyes upon his his Fifth Brandenburg Concerto in D major - where would the piano be without this piece of music?? It can be called 'The First Keyboard Concerto' - the first time a keyboard instrument was ever brought to the forefront in a piece of music like this. The very long cadenza which Bach wrote for the Harpsichord here really brought attention to the keyboard as a soloist among an orchestra. What would the piano concerto be today without Bach? I don't think this can be called backwards thinking at all...
Original post by j.alexanderh
Still don't like Rach though It's a bit strange how I have a strong aversion to the Russian Romantics but I love the Russian C20 stuff.
It's a bit strange how I have a strong aversion to the Russian Romantics but I love the Russian C20 stuff.How can't you like Rachmaninoff?? The man was a genius with orchestration! Just listen to his Symphony No 2 Op. 27 in E minor - what a fantastic piece of music! Words almost can't describe it... it certainly ranks up there as one of the best Symphonies ever written!
(edited 12 years ago)
Nephilim
How can you not like Tchaikovsky
Oh, without much difficulty, I assure you.
Original post by piette
I'm sorry, but Bach was absolutely not backwards looking at all as a composer. His music was no less than revolutionary and provided the grounds for the further development of The Western Classical Tradition. Cast your eyes upon his his Fifth Brandenburg Concerto in D major - where would the piano be without this piece of music?? It can be called 'The First Keyboard Concerto' - the first time a keyboard instrument was ever brought to the forefront in a piece of music like this. The very long cadenza which Bach wrote for the Harpsichord here really brought attention to the keyboard as a soloist among an orchestra. What would the piano concerto be today without Bach? I don't think this can be called backwards thinking at all...
That's very minor point. If Bach hadn't used the harpsichord as a solo concerto instrument then someone else would have soon enough, and certainly by the time the fortepiano was invented it would have become popular as a concerto instrument anyway for its versatility. Look at the style Bach was composing in towards the end of his life compared to that of Handel or Bach's own sons CPE and JC, some of the most prominent composers of the time; while they were striding quickly towards the less contrapuntal gallante style which became the precursor to the Classical period proper, his music became even more focused on contrapuntal forms like the fugue and even the ricercar, which was already outdated before Bach started composing.
Bach was no revolutionary, he was a great synthesiser, much like Mozart: he took influences from all the existing traditions of and before his time and crafted them in to what, if not perfection, was pretty damn close
Bach's music didn't directly provide grounds for the main thrust of further musical development for the next two or three generations of composers anyway; it was largely forgotten until Mendelssohn revived it in the nineteenth century. Although Mozart and Beethoven did learn to play keyboard from copies of the WTC, and both showed some influence of his contrapuntal style in their late works.
How can't you like Rachmaninoff?? The man was a genius with orchestration!
Orchestration is all very well when one enjoys the actual musical material
Anyway, there are plenty of other orchestrators I admire more than Rach - Berlioz, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Ravel, Elgar...Just listen to his Symphony No 2 Op. 27 in E minor - what a fantastic piece of music! Words almost can't describe it... it certainly ranks up there as one of the best Symphonies ever written!
Yep, right behind Haydn's 104, Mozart's from about 20 onwards, Beethoven's 9, Schubert's last 4, Mendelssohn's 4, Schumann's 4, Berlioz's 3 1/2, Brahms' 4, Mahler's 9 and a bit, Sibelius' 7, Prokofiev's 7, Shostakovich's 15, (even Tchaikovsky's 6 and Bruckner's 11 or so, and I don't really like those two)...
I've put a lot of effort into building up my dislike of Rach and you won't change my mind!
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by j.alexanderh
That's very minor point. If Bach hadn't used the harpsichord as a solo concerto instrument then someone else would have soon enough, and certainly by the time the fortepiano was invented it would have become popular as a concerto instrument anyway for its versatility. Look at the style Bach was composing in towards the end of his life compared to that of Handel or Bach's own sons CPE and JC, some of the most prominent composers of the time; while they were striding quickly towards the less contrapuntal gallante style which became the precursor to the Classical period proper, his music became even more focused on contrapuntal forms like the fugue and even the ricercar, which was already outdated before Bach started composing.
Bach was no revolutionary, he was a great synthesiser, much like Mozart: he took influences from all the existing traditions of and before his time and crafted them in to what, if not perfection, was pretty damn close
Bach's music didn't directly provide grounds for the main thrust of further musical development for the next two or three generations of composers anyway; it was largely forgotten until Mendelssohn revived it in the nineteenth century. Although Mozart and Beethoven did learn to play keyboard from copies of the WTC, and both showed some influence of his contrapuntal style in their late works.
Bach was no revolutionary, he was a great synthesiser, much like Mozart: he took influences from all the existing traditions of and before his time and crafted them in to what, if not perfection, was pretty damn close
Bach's music didn't directly provide grounds for the main thrust of further musical development for the next two or three generations of composers anyway; it was largely forgotten until Mendelssohn revived it in the nineteenth century. Although Mozart and Beethoven did learn to play keyboard from copies of the WTC, and both showed some influence of his contrapuntal style in their late works.
I understand where you are coming from when you talk about JC an CPE Bach, though JC was certainly more 'classical' than CPE. If you think about it, JC travelled a great deal, and so saw much more of the world than his father ever did, so his music had a lot of other influences. This doesn't mean that JS Bach's style of composition was outdated in the slightest - my main interest is in Chopin, not Bach, but I can't deny that the man was an absolute genius. You are right in saying that counterpoint was almost abandoned in classical music, though mature classical music is full of it - look at any of Mozart's later works and you will see that they are rich with counterpoint, as are many of the works of Romantic composers such as Chopin. If nothing else, Bach's harmonic innovations and absolute mastery of counterpoint are are forward thinking in the sense that they had great influence on later composers and essentially shaped the face of music in the late Classical and Romantic periods.
Original post by j.alexanderh
I've put a lot of effort into building up my dislike of Rach and you won't change my mind!
I've put a lot of effort into building up my dislike of Rach and you won't change my mind!
Would you mind telling me why you seem to have such a staunch disliking of Rachmaninoff? I don't see why there is any reason to 'dislike' any composer. It makes no sense to me.
On a side note, are you a fan of composers such as Hristov, Vladiverov, Taktakishvili, Revutsky and Bortkiewicz? (My piano teacher is a university Professor specialising in the Music of Soviet composers, accounting for my awareness of obscure composers such as the latter three)
Original post by piette
I understand where you are coming from when you talk about JC an CPE Bach, though JC was certainly more 'classical' than CPE. If you think about it, JC travelled a great deal, and so saw much more of the world than his father ever did, so his music had a lot of other influences. This doesn't mean that JS Bach's style of composition was outdated in the slightest - my main interest is in Chopin, not Bach, but I can't deny that the man was an absolute genius.
Woah, I'm not denying his genius. I love JS Bach. But facts are he stuck to the old style when people around him were moving on.
Would you mind telling me why you seem to have such a staunch disliking of Rachmaninoff? I don't see why there is any reason to 'dislike' any composer. It makes no sense to me.
It makes no sense to you? You like everyone? That almost speaks of an inability to form critical judgements.
On a side note, are you a fan of composers such as Hristov, Vladiverov, Taktakishvili, Revutsky and Bortkiewicz? (My piano teacher is a university Professor specialising in the Music of Soviet composers, accounting for my awareness of obscure composers such as the latter three)
Never heard of any of them except Vladigerov. And I haven't heard anything by him.
Original post by piette
x
What are the similarities you see in Bach and Chopin? Even if parallels could be drawn in terms of personal influence, I really can't hear a distinct link in their music.
Back to pianism, and a new challenge appears:
(Nice to hear piano-playing of this generation that isn't utterly vapid)
Grade 6.
Fur elise:beethoven Nocturne: Chopin etude C:Chopin
Also, I'm wondering, who here also has perfect pitch? I've not met anybody else with it.
Fur elise:beethoven Nocturne: Chopin etude C:Chopin
Also, I'm wondering, who here also has perfect pitch? I've not met anybody else with it.
I need to buy a piano, I only have a keyboard and i stopped music lessons, would i be able to get one for under £200? Where could i get it from as well?
Original post by scherzi
Original post by scherzi
What are the similarities you see in Bach and Chopin? Even if parallels could be drawn in terms of personal influence, I really can't hear a distinct link in their music.
Back to pianism, and a new challenge appears:
(Nice to hear piano-playing of this generation that isn't utterly vapid)
Back to pianism, and a new challenge appears:
(Nice to hear piano-playing of this generation that isn't utterly vapid)
What i love about this, is how effortlessly he plays the song, i would barely be able to play this but i would have problems with the dynamics. I tend to go heavy and accent the wrong notes.
Original post by jam277
What i love about this, is how effortlessly he plays the song, i would barely be able to play this but i would have problems with the dynamics. I tend to go heavy and accent the wrong notes.
I have the same problem, especially playing Chopin. He was a genius with dynamics
.Original post by piette
Having studied Chopin's music and life in extensive detail now for around two years, I can assure you, Chopin and Bach are not all that different. Chopin grew up on Bach and absolutely loved his music in every way, even citing Bach as one of the two greatest influences that shaped his own music.
It may not be immediately evident but on closer inspection Bach's influence on Chopin becomes clear - one need look no further than Chopin's Nocturnes to see Bach's harmony and counterpoint shining through in the Romantic composer's work. Attention should also be paid to Chopin's Op. 28 Preludes (one in each key), written as commissioned works, but very obviously with Bach's works in mind.
In one of his early Paris letters, Chopin also mentions sitting around all day correcting the recent French editions of Bach.
If you're thinking of writing a Ballade in the style of Chopin, you should consider a number of things. It would be worth reading up on Chopin - a man who absolutely hated the idea of 'narrative' music. For all that is essentially what a Ballade is, we must realise that this isn't quite what Chopin intended as such, and as the creator of the musical ballade, we should stay true to Chopin's intentions. If you look closely at Chopin's 4 Ballades you'll note recurring themes - the time signature being significant. The first is in (mostly) 6|4, and all the others are in 6|8 so there is this idea of compound duple time throughout the ballades - also in the second ballade particularly Chopin presents this idea of the Sicilliano dance and contrasts it with a much more turbulent interludes. This could create an idea of a peaceful day in nature by the riverside, interrupted violently by a storm. Chopin writes similarly in his F major Nocturne Op 15 No 1.
Another important part of the Ballades is thematic development throughout which is perhaps most used in the 4th Ballade in F minor. Structure is also a vital part of the instrumental ballades of Chopin where he almost creates his own structure to the pieces - he gives us many different hints of sonata form and rondo form so it could be said that to write a Chopin style ballade a good way to go about it may be:
Andante, calm, lyrical opening section in 6|8
Andante, more anguished and stormy section in 6|8
Repeat of the first section with some changes and perhaps modulating to a new key with a short codetta
Development on themes from the first two sections in different keys in an A-B-A-B'-A-B'' form
Restatement of original ideas then redevelopment of them, building up to a climax towards the end, but finishing the ballade relatively calmly.
If you'd like any advice, feel free to send me a PM.
It may not be immediately evident but on closer inspection Bach's influence on Chopin becomes clear - one need look no further than Chopin's Nocturnes to see Bach's harmony and counterpoint shining through in the Romantic composer's work. Attention should also be paid to Chopin's Op. 28 Preludes (one in each key), written as commissioned works, but very obviously with Bach's works in mind.
In one of his early Paris letters, Chopin also mentions sitting around all day correcting the recent French editions of Bach.
If you're thinking of writing a Ballade in the style of Chopin, you should consider a number of things. It would be worth reading up on Chopin - a man who absolutely hated the idea of 'narrative' music. For all that is essentially what a Ballade is, we must realise that this isn't quite what Chopin intended as such, and as the creator of the musical ballade, we should stay true to Chopin's intentions. If you look closely at Chopin's 4 Ballades you'll note recurring themes - the time signature being significant. The first is in (mostly) 6|4, and all the others are in 6|8 so there is this idea of compound duple time throughout the ballades - also in the second ballade particularly Chopin presents this idea of the Sicilliano dance and contrasts it with a much more turbulent interludes. This could create an idea of a peaceful day in nature by the riverside, interrupted violently by a storm. Chopin writes similarly in his F major Nocturne Op 15 No 1.
Another important part of the Ballades is thematic development throughout which is perhaps most used in the 4th Ballade in F minor. Structure is also a vital part of the instrumental ballades of Chopin where he almost creates his own structure to the pieces - he gives us many different hints of sonata form and rondo form so it could be said that to write a Chopin style ballade a good way to go about it may be:
Andante, calm, lyrical opening section in 6|8
Andante, more anguished and stormy section in 6|8
Repeat of the first section with some changes and perhaps modulating to a new key with a short codetta
Development on themes from the first two sections in different keys in an A-B-A-B'-A-B'' form
Restatement of original ideas then redevelopment of them, building up to a climax towards the end, but finishing the ballade relatively calmly.
If you'd like any advice, feel free to send me a PM.
Oooo thankyou
. But wouldn't that just be classed as a Variation?
Original post by Sephrenia
can i join please? im on grade 5 (just...got 100 for my mark...
im more into jazz, but my favourite pieces are(in no particular order): Bottle Bank Boogie (Pam Wedgewood) Fúr Elise (Beethoven) and Ronda Alla Turka (Mozart)
im more into jazz, but my favourite pieces are(in no particular order): Bottle Bank Boogie (Pam Wedgewood) Fúr Elise (Beethoven) and Ronda Alla Turka (Mozart)
Haha. Me too!
101.
I lost my head completely during the exams and forgot all my scales! I almost cried during the exam.
Original post by Deepshiii
Wow, that is an ancient post!
Original post by j.alexanderh
It makes no sense to you? You like everyone? That almost speaks of an inability to form critical judgements.
Now dear, please don't avoid my question and try to turn it back on me - I have ample ability to make critical judgements about music but that's not to say that I would ever say I dislike a composer and all of their works. Please answer my original question which was, why do you have such a staunch disliking of Rachmaninoff? What critical judgements have you formed about his music to back up your opinion?
Original post by j.alexanderh
Never heard of any of them except Vladigerov. And I haven't heard anything by him.
Never heard of any of them except Vladigerov. And I haven't heard anything by him.
You really should broaden your musical horizons! Try these...
Original post by scherzi
What are the similarities you see in Bach and Chopin? Even if parallels could be drawn in terms of personal influence, I really can't hear a distinct link in their music.
The link between Bach and Chopin is not a terribly distinct one but Bach's influence on Chopin is definitely shown in Chopin's music. Bach was undoubtedly the master of counterpoint and Chopin was greatly influenced by this, using counterpoint in many of his pieces of music, particularly some of the later Nocturnes and pieces such as the Bolero, Barcarolle, Scherzi and Ballades. Chopin's A minor fugue is even a sentiment to Bach, really, or perhaps the 'Chorale' section in his G minor Nocturne, Op. 37 No. 1.
He had quite a soft spot for Bach, did Chopin.
Original post by Nephilim
Oooo thankyou . But wouldn't that just be classed as a Variation?
. But wouldn't that just be classed as a Variation?A variation in what sense? On Chopin's original Ballades? Not really, if your material is original it is completely your own composition. When writing for the first time in a particular genre (here the ballade), composers often choose an earlier composition in that genre and model their first one after that one. A good example would be to look at Grieg's A minor piano concerto and see its similarities to Schumann's A minor piano concerto... and then to have a look at Rachmaninoff's F# minor piano concerto and compare it to Griegs!
Listening to Debussy at the moment, Clair de lune
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