TSR Christian Society

Okay...that is very much fair enough.

lol. It was a massive shock to me going on placement. During first and second year, 4am was considered an early night for me - even when I didn't go out.

I'm normally at least up till 2...although try to go to bed pre 1 when have my 9ams...

Note the word TRY!

Well and truly noted! I miss being able to take a nap in the afternoon :<

I'll throw my 2p on relationships in tomorrow when I get some time at work.

Ha ha at least when you work you can still browse the net etc.

Depends where I am on site. In our lab our computer's are all connected to various radios so we don't get network connections on them! I spent about 3 weeks based solely in the labs recently - they were very slow weeks.

I can imagine

Thanks
It was a very hard time for me.

I'm such a night owl!


Oh dear...prayers for my flatmate please, her best friend has just dripped out her course completely out of the blue and she's really upset.

for her! And prayers of course. Lots and lots of prayers.

Now, I really should be getting off. Night! Sweet dreams, etc!

Don't worry I've done a lot of hugs and consoling while wrapped in blankets.

Night, don't let the bedbugs bite!

I've been internet shy for 24 hours and find that this thread just leaves me behind so easily these days! It used to be countless checks and nothing had changed! I know I still haven't made that post on relationships so am going to try now, bear in mind this is just what I've been musing about.

I'll set you some back story. There is a man in my life at present. We aren't in a relationship and I don't know if things will ever get that far, but we have been on nights out together and ended up smooching. We were friends first which can easily complicate matters. I have been having some misgivings about the situation, but it started at a time where I was feeling distant from God, to say the least, and consequentially I ignored these niggles. Fast Forward. So I'm thinking about this (potential) relationship and I know that I know it doesn't feel long term, that if it progresses then it will feel like a filler relationship, but I'm so sick of being on my own and watching friends be happy in their relationships and I know that I mostly enjoy the time I spend with him and I realise that I'm being an idiot, why am I fooling around with this filler thing when God's got someone out there absolutely perfect for me, someone he will call me into relationship with and whilst patience is not my strong suit, being in relationship with the wrong guy is not going to be the smartest move in the world.

It's a time where trusting is important.

Now you'll read this and realise what an idiot I am.

Ended up writing another 300 words instead of shutting down my PC...

...NOW I'm going to bed!

TBH I see this argument as futile. There is no point arguing over it, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Romans 14 Verses 1-2 -"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only."

Colossians 2:16-17 -"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, -things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

At least GEG tries. Due to money constraints my family always has to go for the cheaper option, which is typically the non-animal friendly stuff

My best friend is a vegan, so the animal rights issue is about the only thing that causes issues between us. She says she doesn't understand how I can be a human rights activist, which I am, and not be vegan. I normally make a joke about how delicious bacon is, or just shrug it off, because both of those answers are a lot easier and a lot less likely to cause trouble than the real one.

How much detail do you want? Because I'm afraid to say that I haven't kept a biography of every animal I've ever eaten a part of. I haven't seen the animal being slaughtered. I haven't seen the animals every day throughout their lives, nor have I interviewed them with probing questions about their quality of life. No matter how pleasent their raising can look to an outsider, I can't prove that - for example - the farmer doesn't have a cellar full of battery-farmed animals and they're the ones he actually exports.

It depends what I'm buying. I'd say I typically spend between £35 and £60 per week and a half.

I'm not entirely sure whether you see the argument as futile because it's 'not a big deal' or because of the verses you listed. If it's the first, then your frame of reference is unchristian. It doesn't matter 'in the grand scheme of things' if I leave my room now and punch my mother, or if I go out and mug someone walking home. In the grand scheme of things, US slavery isn't a big deal. It isn't a big deal if I keep a chicken in my room just to torture it. But all these things are totally unjustifiable and moreover they are sacrilegious, because they abuse things which God holds dear. If you wouldn't use that argument about wrongs to humans, you can't use it about animals.

Furthermore, in terms of sheer scale, this question is clearly more than pressing. Over 50 billion animals are tortured and killed by factory farming annually. No human suffering on earth even comes close.

As for your quotes, neither of them address the issue at hand. They clearly don't just give licence to eat any meat, no other questions asked. If your eating meat caused other people to starve, it would be wrong. If it causes animal's rights to be violated, it is wrong.

Proverbs 12:10a: "Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast"



Then why not suggest that you stop buying meat? I mean, given the cruelty involved, and given how easy it can be not to eat such foods, should christians not do it? Plus, it's often much cheaper not to eat meat anyway.



What is the real answer?

I can understand your friend's confusion. Even if you don't care about animals, there are a huge range of human-oriented reasons to be [at least mostly] vegan.

Firstly, meat, dairy and eggs are hugely inefficient ways of feeding people, and are hard to justify as a rich privelege when so many people have insufficient food. Many countries are really struggling with high grain prices - prices which would be much lower if huge volumes of grain weren't fed to animals for rich westerners to eat.

Secondly, animal farming contributes a huge proportion of the CO2 total - normally estimated at about 18%. The burden of global warming falls substantially on the poor and vulnerable.

Thirdly, by being such a wasteful way to produce food, animal farming takes precious resources (such as fuel, equipment, medicine, human expertise) away from valuable human enterprises. It also multiplies the impact of agricultural pollution from fertilisers, chemicals etc.

Fourthly, the huge drain on certain resources (such as water) exacted by animal farming causes and exacerbates conflicts between countries, making war a lot more difficult to prevent.

Fifthly, animal-human diseases are a huge problem, and potential pandemics ought to be a real consideration. Large animal farms, necessitated by western consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are responsible for these diseases being such a problem.

Sixthly, there are well-established causal links between violence towards animals and violence towards humans. Extracting ourselves from animal killing prevents workers having to be exposed to these kinds of influences. I'm told the causal link also works the other way - kindness towards animals improves compassion towards human beings.

Seventhly, the level of meat consumption in western countries is hugely unhealthy, and most people vastly overestimate the amount of animal products needed in a healthy diet. Animal industries have to be hugely shrunk to allow for a healthy society.

Eighthly, the 'western' diet is currently in the process of being exported all across the globe. The beneficiaries of this are the already vastly wealthy, western food corporations, causing a greater transfer of wealth from poor to rich countries. The western world needs to change its eating habits, set a better example, and stop funding the companies behind this.

Ninthly, it encourages people to live in violation of their own consciences. Most people in this country object to factory farming. And yet they will often turn a blind eye to this if something 'tasty' appears in the supermarket. We ought to encourage people to give priority to their ethical views - something we can't do if we're not ourselves.

Tenthly, the modern treatment of animals is hugely distressing to a large number of people. It is incredibly easy to minimise one's consumption of animal products and alleviate this distress.



I don't think the sarcasm is really necessary here. I'm trying to have a sensible, christian-christians discussion, and I've endeavoured to keep my language restrained, and my points reasonable. This isn't a topic I bring up overly often, and I don't harass individuals. This is in spite of the fact that I think we, the christian community, are failing in one of our most basic duties, and are abusing and violating creatures that God cares about immensely, and has entrusted to our care. These are innocent, defenceless, speechless creatures, and we're riding roughshod over even the most basic of their entitlements. The churches are already culpable for not having spoken up for other oppressed groups - the natives of colonised countries, Tutsis in Rwanda, the Jews in Nazi Germany... They should be eager at least to listen and consider charges that other groups are being mistreated.

My point to you was that 'organic/local' does not mean anything welfare-wise. I was wondering whether you know what standards of animal welfare the farms you buy from actually have. I was also, as a matter of interest, wondering how much it costs to actually buy only 'free-range', organic meat. My initial thoughts were that, assuming it quite expensive, it would be fairly difficult to justify spending money on that rather than giving to charity given that there are cheaper, cruelty-free options.

I should point out [to everyone] that I'm not just referring to 'direct' consumption of animal products. The reason there are still so many battery chickens in this country [70% of all egg consumption] is that eggs are in so many products that people simply consume without thinking. We need to be aware of the full impact of everything we consume, and try to make choices in accordance with christian teaching and our consciences.

My point was in the scale of Christian issues it's not like saying Jesus wasn't Jesus so no point in arguing over it. Plus after 2 Timothy today I'm trying to not get into arguments

so many pages ._.

But we're both already christians This is about deciding how we live as christians (which we have to do!), not about what is and is not a requirement for faith (which it isn't).

My point was it's not a core matter of faith. Vegans, vegetarians, omnivores, carnivores can all be Christians...it doesn't affect how they view God.

Night...again!